Mr Incredible

your right, I never pulled apart motors for four years learning about them. I have no idea what you learned, or that you learned anything. But I can tell you that you didn't learn that thicker oil ruins a motor for thinner oil. You may think it, but that's not what you were looking at.

your also right that I made a generalization?...could you please ******* show me where I did that? I touched on several prior posts. If the shoe doesn't fit, it wasn't for you.

can you also show me where I said that oil "push's aside seals and gaskets"? You didn't say those exact words, but that's what I saw in my mind's eye when reading your second post, first paragraph, (post #4)....The hose analogy. My apologies if what you wrote is not what I saw.

you've got to be pretty dense to not understand that oil is whats between moving parts, THICKER HEAVIER OIL DISPLACE'S MORE AREA...its ******* science. Yeah, that's what I said about oil film thickness...and when it can't displace more area, it makes the pressure go up. Duh.


on brand new motors, using a thick oil WILL wear in an area alot faster then a thinner oil and thus switching back to the thinner oil later on will create more valve train noise, more friction, and possible problems later on... No, it doesn't. You're wrong. Plain and simple.

ive broken down motors because of several things, related and unrelated to oil issues....ie bearing problems, oil pump issues, rocker problems, etc.... Yeah, and? I've heard horror stories of mechanics of 20-30 years on the job that "know" something that isn't so. Just tearing down an engine and looking at the parts doesn't make you an expert at knowing what caused what. Even being able to put one back together and make it run doesn't do that. You're simply dead wrong on that thicker/thinner oil thing.

also my post is pretty easy to read compared to other's on here....dont even try to call out how i post, keep your smartass comments to yourself. No, thank you. I'll do what I wish, just like you do. I don't know you personally, but I can tell you know a lot. And you don't know a lot. Same with me. But you really are wrong on the thick oil thing.

staringback05

iTrader: (8)

like i said man, i just dont appreciate when people try to make me out to be totally wrong on things ive seen and done....im not claiming every motor will do this, but i have seen it done....ive had a 20 year gm master tech point them out to me (andy speiler)

if youve really read all of my post, IVE NEVER said that rpm or yourself was wrong about your beliefs on oil or motors...i never have, but its blatant that you tell me im wrong, even when its things ive seen....

im going to work now, i have no animosity toward anyone on here, but please dont lump me in with newbs, or the like....i know what i see, i know what ive been taught, and i know what ive learned...and by no means im saying anyone else is wrong, but i wish people would stop telling me im wrong because im going against their beliefs

RPM WS6

iTrader: (3)

Yes they are. You've managed to prove that quite well.

You seem to think you know a lot, good for you. But you fail to realize when you are wrong. Not good for other's who don't know better. Thankfully, those of us that DO know better are here to correct your misinformation.

As for dropping an oil pan, lots of kids over at Jiffy Lube could do that too. Doesn't mean they know everything either.

Again, please ask these GM techs why Vettes came from the GM assembly line with synthetic oil, if it's bad for a new LS1 motor. I'd love to hear the answer.

As for what the manual recommends for the LS1, 5 or 10W30 are listed as acceptable for the LS1. And many oil tests by members here have shown that oils on the "thick" side of 30 weight (like GC 0W30) or "thin" side of a 40 weight (like M1 0W40) will show better wear numbers than thinner oils like an M1 5W30 will.

RPM WS6

iTrader: (3)

It's not about beliefs. It's about right and wrong. In this topic, there is only one right answer and one wrong answer. It's not a matter of opinion.

RPM WS6

iTrader: (3)

I don't either.

Like I said, we're all one big LS1 family to me.

Mr Incredible

Generalities (warning)

Every engine is different, even within the mfg run or family. Each is built to a variance of tolerances resulting in engines as different almost as fingerprints, but within a finite range.

Engine oil isn't a magical elixer that can't be fathomed by the masses. It's easy to understand, you just have to find the information and READ it. Understanding is optional, but increases as more material is read.

Some LS1s knock, some don't. Some will knock no matter the oil. Sometimes going up a weight will make it go away some or all. It depends on the individual motor.

Some LS1s use less or more oil than the next. Many engine types, sizes, mfg's use oil. Some don't. A rule of thumb for oil use is go up in weight for less consumption. Alternately, going down in weight often increases consumption.

Oil does some things and doesn't do others. Oil lubricates two ways, static and dynamic. Static lubrication happens at startup and is a function of the oil left over as a film on your engine parts before oil pressure builds on startup. Dynamic lubrication occurs as the oil pressurizes and the rotating/sliding part "rides the wave", or wedge, of oil that has built up between the parts. A thinner oil results in a thinner wedge or film, a thicker oil results in a thicker one. A thicker oil, therefore, REDUCES wear due to an increased oil film thickness and increased resistance to metal-to-metal contact.

Oil pressure builds up as a function of the resistance to flow of a pumped, viscous fluid. Increase the sizes of the bearing tolerances or the oil passages and the pressure drops. Constrict flow with thinner passages or bearing tolerances and the pressure rises. A normal engine is designed and built so that seals and gaskets that are part of pressurized passages are not deformed or eroded at any pressure likely to be seen in that engine. Time, heat, and improper care kill seals and gaskets. As does improper gasket/seal design or materials.

My V10 was rated at 5w-30 when it came out. It is now retro-rated to 5w-20 by the mfg. I've used 5w-40. I'm currently using 5w-20. Eventually, I'll use 0w-30. And it won't have suffered the loss of a single stinkin' molecule of iron, copper, aluminum, seal, or gasket due strictly to the change of oil weights. I wouldn't go 5w-20 in an LS1, but any other gas engine oil weight is open. They will all work, but not all optimally. The problem is if you go too low in the heat or too high in the cold.

I do not wish to insult or diss any BODY...only specific points of interest. We all make mistakes. But, if you are embarrassed by your spelling, structure, and punctuation...it's never too late to do better. And if more than one person is telling you you're full of something, you might want to find out why, regardless of the issue.

But most of all, as was mentioned above, it's not about beliefs. It's about facts.

RPM WS6

iTrader: (3)

One more thing I'd like to point out. Nobody here is doubting that you've seen motors in poor condition, with all kinds of nasty internal issues and damaged bearings, etc. Most of us have seen this at one time or another.

What we are doubting is, the reasons you claim for such internal damage. Misuse, lack of maintenance, harsh conditions, parts breakage due to factory flaws, or just plain excessive use/high mileage are usually the typical culprits for internal engine damage/failure. There is simply no way that switching weights around (within the normal range for the motor) or trying different brands of various thickness within the same range, will cause harm in and of itself.

And these GM techs you know who think that synthetic oil is bad for a new LS1; man they must be making a killing replacing all those C5 motors that came with synthetic from the factory.

sunsetta

iTrader: (3)

Why would you want to change to another oil? That is NOT a good policy. 9 times out of 10, it causes some problem.

Mr Incredible

Synthetic oils are (have been) contra-indicated for new engines exactly for their NOT allowing proper break-in wear. They're too slick for the micro-abrasion that is what break-in is all about.

This is directly counter to "USING SYNTH./ THICKER OIL ON A NEW MOTOR WILL WEAR IN THE INTERNAL PARTS ALOT FASTER THEN THE RECOMENDED TYPE...5W30...WHICH IS IN THE MANUAL...THUS THIS COULD LEAD TO PROBLEMS LATER....THATS MY WHOLE STANCE...."

Thicker oils may have the same issue, in as much as they prevent or DELAY proper break-in. Usually I've only heard this associated with poor ring seal and oil consumption. However, some high performance engines that are manufactured/machined specifically for immediate use with synthetic oils can use them with none of those issues.

As for the noise issues incurred by going down a weight, that is caused by the decreased viscosity of the oil and it's decreased cushioning due to a thinner oil film. But it would have done that even from the start, not have been caused by the prior thicker oil.

Oil has to meet specific viscosity criteria to be called a certain weight. Each weight is a specific range. A 40w is thicker than a 30w. But a high 30w and a low 40w may not be all that different. Another factor that may affect engine noise is the oil formulation. Is the synthetic a GpIII or GpIV? The different percentage and type of basestock and the percentage of additives may have an effect on how it reacts with a specific engine.

Sneakyws6

Sunsetta did you not read the past 4 pages of this thread. Show us where in writing and or a proven tear down that switching brands of oil cause a failure in a engine.

Mr Incredible

Only if 9 out of 10 changes were made by those not knowing what they're doing and got it wrong.

There is no inherant danger involved in changing oils, provided the changes are made for a good reason and with sufficient knowledge.

"I don't like this Brand X 5w-30...too much noise. I'll go to Brand Y." But is Brand Y really different? In what way? What is the viscosity index at what temps? Is it different enough from Brand X to justify the change? Is Brand X 5w-30 the right oil in the first place? Is the change going the wrong way or the right way? Or no way?

Just buying an oil due to bottle color, advertisements, or word of mouth is not sufficient to the person with a passion to do the right thing. That person must go the extra mile and learn how to make the right choices if any degree of correctness is desired.

RPM WS6

iTrader: (3)

What problem does it cause? Can you give us some facts?

LOL....if this was true, I'd have a driveway full of cars with motor problems right now.

RPM WS6

iTrader: (3)

Ever hear of the term velocitation?

It describes the effect you feel in the following situation:

Get on the expressway and drive at 55mph for a mile or so. Now, do a WOT blast up to 120-130mph and hold it there for 5 seconds or so. Now, rapidly decelerate back to 55mph. Notice how much slower 55mph feels now than it did before the WOT run? It’s obviously not slower because 55mph is 55mph no matter how you slice it, but it feels slower simply because your body began to adjust to the higher speeds, and now 55mph feels much slower than it did a few moments earlier.

This is also true with noise. If you were running a thinner oil (say M1 5W30) and had, what you considered to be little or no noise, and now you switch to a thicker oil (say M1 0W40), the motor will likely be even quieter. Now, if you switch back to the thinner oil, you will have already grown accustom to the reduced noise from the thicker oil, and you may think that the motor is nosier now than it ever was, but in reality it’s not any louder than it was before the thicker oil...you’re just more perceptive to the noise now.

BigDaddyBry

iTrader: (15)

Jesus ******' Christ, close this thread already. People are trying to reinvent the wheel and make it square.

staringback05

iTrader: (8)

i dont give a ****, i just dont care now, ive helped alot of people on here....

i have two guys trying to destroy anything i say....rpm/incredible...wheres your proof it doesnt?....ive got a few motors under my belt that have shown premature wear....you say you have a few that dont....so who's to decide? wheres your ultimate proof saying im totally wrong?...aside from the fact...you say im wrong...

i dont care vettes susposedly come with synth.....GM made their damn window motors to....and they tell us to run 5w30 mobil 1.....not like GM made any money off of that sponsorship

i wouldnt know what they do at jiffy lube...ive never taken my car there....

i know 20-30 fbody guys personally and i dont know any of them that break their motors in with synth....guess there all wrong.....

im done posting in this thread becuase its not helping anyone out, people can read what they want......i have proof, let them decide on their own

RPM WS6

iTrader: (3)

Burden of proof is with you. Since there is nothing anywhere in any GM manual that says there is anything wrong with switching brands/weights within the accepted range, YOU are the one that needs to show hard proof of your claims. But you won't be able to, because they are false.


And are you fully aware of what these motors have lived through since day one? Have you personally owned these motors and personally switched weights/brands back and fourth as a test, and then seen these results, with no other possibile factors involved?

LOL, man you are grasping at straws here. The point is, the C5s DID come with synthetic from the factory, period. Investigate this if you don't beleive me. And is there any evidance that C5s lose motors quicker (on average) than their V8 F-body counterparts?


Again, guess you don't know any guys that bought C5s new then.

What proof? You've yet to prove anything in this thread, other than the fact you've seen some damaged motors that didn't belong to you for any period of time, and you assume that the damage was done due to a pratice that you have no personal experiance with (switching weights/brands). Then you toss around a couple names of GM "master" techs who appearently have no idea what that factory oil fill was for the C5. That's a great example right there.

staringback05

iTrader: (8)

i havent seen any facts from you...other then some mess about c5 oil...other then that you have nothing else....

when im working in a shop with one of those techs your making fun of...and they come to me and say..."look we have this motor out of this car it has this many miles and these are the types of oils that have been used"...im pretty sure thats a good bit of info....these arent 80k mile motors....these are 2k 5k mile motors with obvious issues...

ur right i dont know alot of c5 guys....never honestly cared

your defenition of proof isnt the same as mine...proof is something you can put your hands on and see.....guess thats not the same with u....

burden of proof lies with both of us, because the gm manual doesnt say much of anything, it wont tell u A4 trannys are weak, it wont tell you about weak rod bolts, or the oil pump issues in 99s and 98s from the factory....soooo you prove me that, the oil issue's wont hurt these NEW motors in these cars....

RPM WS6

iTrader: (3)

Yes you have seen my facts. I've stated that I have personal experiance with switching weights/brands of oil, within the acceptable range for a given motor, and I've yet to lose an engine doing this...ranging from motors that I've owned brand new all the way to engines I've had with 140,000 miles. Not just LS1s either, I've been switching weights on my Bonneville every winter/spring for the last 5 years and and for many, many 10s of thousands of miles without issue. My LS1s have seen all kinds of different oils over the years. And unlike your "proof", these aren't motors that belong to other people, with a tech telling me second hand information on what sort of life the motor lived with the owner of the car. I mean really, how does the tech know exactly what was done with the motor or what oils have been used over many thousands of miles unless he/she owned it?

Nobody can know for sure what was done with a motor they did not own. And to blame switching oil brands or weights within the accepted range for showing abnormal wear at low mileage just doesn't make sense.

I'm not making fun of anybody. I don't know these techs, and for all I know you could be misquoting them or misunderstanding what they were saying. Or perhaps these techs aren't familar with LS1s specifically and just don't know any better. All I'm saying is, just because someone is a master GM tech does not make them an expert on oil or on LS1s.

As for low mileage exmaples, my '00 WS6 that I bought brand new received synthetic at about 500 miles at the first oil change. And I switched brands/weights around between 500 miles and about 6,000 miles when the motor came apart for the cam, and the internals were fine.

Hell, nobody within any field is an expert in all aspects of that field. I'm sure these guys might very well be great techs and know how to fix cars, but if they look you in the eye and tell you that breaking in a brand new, factory (not aftermarket internals) LS1 with synthetic will lead to premature wear, then I'd like them to explain to you why C5s don't seem to lose motors any quicker than V8 '98-'02 F-bodies.

I'm not an oil expert either, but I know that I've been doing the very thing you say is bad for many, many years (switching weights/brands) and I have yet to see any ill side effects.

I've got a driveway/garage with 4 cars in/on it that I can touch with my hands and see, and I've owned a dozen others. All have seen varying brands and weights of oil without ill side effects. That is my proof.

I'm not even going to start a 4L60E debate with you here, but this tranny is NOT weak at factory power levels. When you start big mods then yes, you will likely have issues. But for stock/bolt-ons cars, the 4L60E does a great job. But that's a debate for another time and place.

The oil pump issue you speak of is just as much of a potential issue on the '00 cars as well. It's not limited to '98-'99. And either way, once again that's another topic for another time.

As for the synthetic not hurting a new, factory built LS1....well, I have all the proof I need. Every '97-'04 vette on the road with a factory-original engine and 10s of thousands of miles is my proof right there. And you can see 'em, touch 'em, and drive 'em.

I will say openly right now, I make no claims as to whether breaking in other factory motors with synthetic is good or bad, but for a factory built LS1 it's not going to cause a problem.

RPM WS6

iTrader: (3)

This statement bothers me. Are you trying to say that you're right just because you've helped people here? That logic is silly. If that's the case, then I'm sure that I've helped many more people here than you have, considering I've been around this site about 5 times longer than you. I, however, don't think that way when debating an issue.....

But I'm hoping that's not what you meant, because that's an ignorant statement for anyone to make, especially someone that hasn't even been a member of this community for a year yet.

Mr Incredible

Guy, I am NOT trying to destroy anything you say. Don't get hysterical. What I am doing is pointing out the fact that, on this one single issue, you are so very wrong as to be almost laughable.

As for proof, there's about ten million facts out there that you obviously haven't had the benefit of finding. I don't have the time nor the inclination to make you see the light. I can only make an attempt to make sure nobody else believes what you are trying to make them believe...about this one single issue. But since you've been called out, the burden is upon you.

As for your inside-the-engine experience, that obviously only goes so far. As for this small pissing contest, I'm through. I personally couldn't care less what you go through life believing. Anybody that knows, knows better.

G'Day.