Which 02 sensors to buy?
07-29-2011, 11:02 AM
#21
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Ive never had a car that "just wont run" on a Bosch brand 02 sensor, and trust me Ive installed my fair share of 02's.
Just cause i have them sitting next to me, here is a pic of how long my 13111's are...
total length is just over 51 inches.
07-29-2011, 11:52 AM
#22
Yeah GM made the anti-Bosch PCM's that do their own thing....
Ive never had a car that "just wont run" on a Bosch brand 02 sensor, and trust me Ive installed my fair share of 02's.
Just cause i have them sitting next to me, here is a pic of how long my 13111's are...
total length is just over 51 inches.
Ive never had a car that "just wont run" on a Bosch brand 02 sensor, and trust me Ive installed my fair share of 02's.
Just cause i have them sitting next to me, here is a pic of how long my 13111's are...
total length is just over 51 inches.
The first time I had an 02 sensor fail I stopped by Advance Auto and picked up a Bosch 13111 and went to Mecedo Motorsports so they can put it in. On start-up the engine would hardly run. They told me to go to the local dealer up the street and get a GM 02 sensor....they let me borrow a car and I went and spent way over $100 for one sensor. Came back, put it in and the engine was perfect.
So don't tell me that Bosch sensors work in everyones car.....you will sound like an idiot because because of what I just told you about my car (PCM).
And a little NEWS FLASH for you.....GM doesn't design parts (their PCM) hoping that a company like Bosch will THEN later on make an 02 sensor that will work. Its the aftermarket companies like Bosch that have to design their parts to be compatible with the GM PCM.......the other way around in how your brain thinks.
Tons of aftermarket parts that companies make are crap and don't work as good as others. Wake up.......Bosch 02 sensors are one of those parts.
Period.
.
07-29-2011, 11:54 AM
#23
And I'm not bashing them, they suck. They have to take it on the chin for making junk.
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07-29-2011, 11:55 AM
#24
I haven't used the Bosch O2s in the Formula, but have used them in plenty of other cars. The PCM thing is somewhat silly. There are different PCMs with slightly different OS's and mild differences in tunes over the years. There really isn't anything to affect O2 sensor reading. However, there is variance in mods that people perform, specifically LT's with different geometry and other things that manipulate exhaust temperature and velocity (cams, displacement, whatever...). I'm sure that any of them work well in OEM manifolds for which they are designed.
My Formula (with LT's) has had the OEM O2's (which were most likely "AC Delco" probably made by Delphi), Delphi replacements, and now Denso replacements. The Denso's have been the most finicky about switching at idle. They just don't work as well as the Delphi's did with my setup. Specifically, they set insufficient switching codes after the first diagnostic cycle after install. They switched off idle well, so I did some tuning trickery and got around it, but I wouldn't rate them as the best O2's ever.
AC Delco probably switched suppliers because Denso just gave them a better deal. And it wasn't like Delphi was part of the GM empire any longer. All in all the next time I replace mine I might try the NTK or Bosch. Or I might just go back to Delphi.
My Formula (with LT's) has had the OEM O2's (which were most likely "AC Delco" probably made by Delphi), Delphi replacements, and now Denso replacements. The Denso's have been the most finicky about switching at idle. They just don't work as well as the Delphi's did with my setup. Specifically, they set insufficient switching codes after the first diagnostic cycle after install. They switched off idle well, so I did some tuning trickery and got around it, but I wouldn't rate them as the best O2's ever.
AC Delco probably switched suppliers because Denso just gave them a better deal. And it wasn't like Delphi was part of the GM empire any longer. All in all the next time I replace mine I might try the NTK or Bosch. Or I might just go back to Delphi.
07-29-2011, 11:59 AM
#25
I'm just really confused now. Can anyone clear this up for me? so I buy bosch 13111's I'll have a crap load of wire to zip tie right? And if I buy these denso's which are supposedly super awesome for less which part number do I order for my FBODY ta with LT headers? I dont recall if it was ever made clear whether he ran these with his Fbody or a corvette. I need to order some o2 sensors ASAP so the sooner the better
I really don't understand why people are having issues with wire length....look at my pictures above that I took yesterday of my Denso 02 sensors. They are 10" long and 14" long. And the 14" long passenger side needed to be folded and zip-tied to the tranny lines because they were too long.
So my best advice.....put the car up on ramps or a lift.....measure what you need for wire length for whatever positions you are using.
THEN........order the Densos for $33.00 each if you can. If not....good luck with Bosch.
Thats all I can say I guess...................I use Densos, wire length for my LT headers is fine and they are the best sensors, by far, on the market.
.
07-29-2011, 12:04 PM
#26
I haven't used the Bosch O2s in the Formula, but have used them in plenty of other cars. The PCM thing is somewhat silly. There are different PCMs with slightly different OS's and mild differences in tunes over the years. There really isn't anything to affect O2 sensor reading. However, there is variance in mods that people perform, specifically LT's with different geometry and other things that manipulate exhaust temperature and velocity (cams, displacement, whatever...). I'm sure that any of them work well in OEM manifolds for which they are designed.
My original factory PCM from 1998 was wacked. I didn't get codes for failed MAF, TPS, or IAC valves. My friends 98-02 F-body's all do. And some other people don't get them that I've talked to also.
I didn't get a code for a failing Crank Shaft position sensor until its totally failed. I know people who get the code and SES light as soon as it starts to act up but is not yet failed.
My PCM now is a new one so I haven't had any problems yet, so I have no idea how this PCM will act or warn me of problems.
Oh....my old PCM totally took my MAF out of the loop and turned it off. Every tuner on here and builders said thats impossible......until I had a guy hook it up to his tuning software and said....."huh, your right, your MAF is OFF." Its simple, there's still allot people don't know about these PCM's, including the men who designed it at GM, and people will continue to figure them out for years.
.
Last edited by LS6427; 07-29-2011 at 12:17 PM.
07-29-2011, 12:45 PM
#27
About this, I doubt it. There is a difference between claiming that there are real differences in the operation of an original functioning PCM and one that may have been damaged.
There isn't any magic that is going on inside them. These aren't biological creatures prone to irrational behavior. What are the real differences in hardware and software that you are talking about?
I know you are providing anecdotes about a single 98 PCM that you have since replaced as faulty... that doesn't prove much about the state of PCMs as a whole. Certainly a broken PCM isn't going to function as expected. But how does that prove that you know more about their PCMs than the GM engineers? I don't even know that you had a stock GM tune in that computer. It would have been interesting to see a scan of the PCM.
Additionally, even though fault detection wasn't to your satisfaction in the software version, can you provide some data about changes or updates relating specifically to the O2 sensors? The OEM replacement sensors from whoever are built to conform to nearly the same specifications. It would be interesting to see A) how certain 98 PCM software / hardware specs could tell it was connected to a Bosch sensor, and B) what engine management error it then caused to prevent your car from running. Then perhaps we can see why there have been so many other cars on this board that have run the Bosch sensors without anywhere near as drastic problems if any.
You chastised a posted above for not being on this board a long time. Well if board membership length means anything I have been on here for a while. It wasn't an accident that the Bosch sensors appeared all over the place. They were probably the most used and recommended sensors for LT's. Some of the things people claimed about them are likely untrue (specifically stronger heating elements for the Corvette Rear application), but in general they probably worked as well as any other OEM type replacement. None of them work as well as they do in stock manifolds though, and if you also throw a crappy tune on top of it they aren't going to perform to expectation.
The real issue is that people are using parts designed for specific parameters and using them in an environment that does not meet those parameters, which by and large is the result of relocation by LTs, cam specs, and even poor tuning. You also do not hear about how many people use them without issue. People don't make posts like "Hey my O2s are working, just wanted to let you know." On the internet, problems travel at the speed of light, but success is reported by pony express.
There isn't any magic that is going on inside them. These aren't biological creatures prone to irrational behavior. What are the real differences in hardware and software that you are talking about?
I know you are providing anecdotes about a single 98 PCM that you have since replaced as faulty... that doesn't prove much about the state of PCMs as a whole. Certainly a broken PCM isn't going to function as expected. But how does that prove that you know more about their PCMs than the GM engineers? I don't even know that you had a stock GM tune in that computer. It would have been interesting to see a scan of the PCM.
Additionally, even though fault detection wasn't to your satisfaction in the software version, can you provide some data about changes or updates relating specifically to the O2 sensors? The OEM replacement sensors from whoever are built to conform to nearly the same specifications. It would be interesting to see A) how certain 98 PCM software / hardware specs could tell it was connected to a Bosch sensor, and B) what engine management error it then caused to prevent your car from running. Then perhaps we can see why there have been so many other cars on this board that have run the Bosch sensors without anywhere near as drastic problems if any.
You chastised a posted above for not being on this board a long time. Well if board membership length means anything I have been on here for a while. It wasn't an accident that the Bosch sensors appeared all over the place. They were probably the most used and recommended sensors for LT's. Some of the things people claimed about them are likely untrue (specifically stronger heating elements for the Corvette Rear application), but in general they probably worked as well as any other OEM type replacement. None of them work as well as they do in stock manifolds though, and if you also throw a crappy tune on top of it they aren't going to perform to expectation.
The real issue is that people are using parts designed for specific parameters and using them in an environment that does not meet those parameters, which by and large is the result of relocation by LTs, cam specs, and even poor tuning. You also do not hear about how many people use them without issue. People don't make posts like "Hey my O2s are working, just wanted to let you know." On the internet, problems travel at the speed of light, but success is reported by pony express.
07-29-2011, 12:53 PM
#28
About this, I doubt it. There is a difference between claiming that there are real differences in the operation of an original functioning PCM and one that may have been damaged.
There isn't any magic that is going on inside them. These aren't biological creatures prone to irrational behavior. What are the real differences in hardware and software that you are talking about?
I know you are providing anecdotes about a single 98 PCM that you have since replaced as faulty... that doesn't prove much about the state of PCMs as a whole. Certainly a broken PCM isn't going to function as expected. But how does that prove that you know more about their PCMs than the GM engineers? I don't even know that you had a stock GM tune in that computer. It would have been interesting to see a scan of the PCM.
Additionally, even though fault detection wasn't to your satisfaction in the software version, can you provide some data about changes or updates relating specifically to the O2 sensors? The OEM replacement sensors from whoever are built to conform to nearly the same specifications. It would be interesting to see A) how certain 98 PCM software / hardware specs could tell it was connected to a Bosch sensor, and B) what engine management error it then caused to prevent your car from running. Then perhaps we can see why there have been so many other cars on this board that have run the Bosch sensors without anywhere near as drastic problems if any.
You chastised a posted above for not being on this board a long time. Well if board membership length means anything I have been on here for a while. It wasn't an accident that the Bosch sensors appeared all over the place. They were probably the most used and recommended sensors for LT's. Some of the things people claimed about them are likely untrue (specifically stronger heating elements for the Corvette Rear application), but in general they probably worked as well as any other OEM type replacement. None of them work as well as they do in stock manifolds though, and if you also throw a crappy tune on top of it they aren't going to perform to expectation.
The real issue is that people are using parts designed for specific parameters and using them in an environment that does not meet those parameters, which by and large is the result of relocation by LTs, cam specs, and even poor tuning. You also do not hear about how many people use them without issue. People don't make posts like "Hey my O2s are working, just wanted to let you know." On the internet, problems travel at the speed of light, but success is reported by pony express.
There isn't any magic that is going on inside them. These aren't biological creatures prone to irrational behavior. What are the real differences in hardware and software that you are talking about?
I know you are providing anecdotes about a single 98 PCM that you have since replaced as faulty... that doesn't prove much about the state of PCMs as a whole. Certainly a broken PCM isn't going to function as expected. But how does that prove that you know more about their PCMs than the GM engineers? I don't even know that you had a stock GM tune in that computer. It would have been interesting to see a scan of the PCM.
Additionally, even though fault detection wasn't to your satisfaction in the software version, can you provide some data about changes or updates relating specifically to the O2 sensors? The OEM replacement sensors from whoever are built to conform to nearly the same specifications. It would be interesting to see A) how certain 98 PCM software / hardware specs could tell it was connected to a Bosch sensor, and B) what engine management error it then caused to prevent your car from running. Then perhaps we can see why there have been so many other cars on this board that have run the Bosch sensors without anywhere near as drastic problems if any.
You chastised a posted above for not being on this board a long time. Well if board membership length means anything I have been on here for a while. It wasn't an accident that the Bosch sensors appeared all over the place. They were probably the most used and recommended sensors for LT's. Some of the things people claimed about them are likely untrue (specifically stronger heating elements for the Corvette Rear application), but in general they probably worked as well as any other OEM type replacement. None of them work as well as they do in stock manifolds though, and if you also throw a crappy tune on top of it they aren't going to perform to expectation.
The real issue is that people are using parts designed for specific parameters and using them in an environment that does not meet those parameters, which by and large is the result of relocation by LTs, cam specs, and even poor tuning. You also do not hear about how many people use them without issue. People don't make posts like "Hey my O2s are working, just wanted to let you know." On the internet, problems travel at the speed of light, but success is reported by pony express.
And I had failed sensors (TPS, IAC, Crank sensor) when my car was bone stock 1-3 years after I bought it. My PCM failed on me when my PCM-to-ground wire came loose about 1 1/2 years ago. So my original PCM was fine for 11 years. It just DID NOT act like other 98 PCM's when it came time to throw a code.
.
07-29-2011, 01:27 PM
#31
Staging Lane
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Well I'll put it to you as simple as I can because this subject has been beat to death. You haven't been around here long enough to read how many problems people have with Bosch **** sensors over the years. MY car won't run on Bosch 02 sensors, as I already said, and I have friends here in town who's cars WILL NOT RUN on Bosch 02 sensors, as well as people all across this country. Also, if you think all of our PCM's operate exactly the same, you're plain ignorant to how these PCM's work.
The first time I had an 02 sensor fail I stopped by Advance Auto and picked up a Bosch 13111 and went to Mecedo Motorsports so they can put it in. On start-up the engine would hardly run. They told me to go to the local dealer up the street and get a GM 02 sensor....they let me borrow a car and I went and spent way over $100 for one sensor. Came back, put it in and the engine was perfect.
So don't tell me that Bosch sensors work in everyones car.....you will sound like an idiot because because of what I just told you about my car (PCM).
And a little NEWS FLASH for you.....GM doesn't design parts (their PCM) hoping that a company like Bosch will THEN later on make an 02 sensor that will work. Its the aftermarket companies like Bosch that have to design their parts to be compatible with the GM PCM.......the other way around in how your brain thinks.
Tons of aftermarket parts that companies make are crap and don't work as good as others. Wake up.......Bosch 02 sensors are one of those parts.
Period.
.
The first time I had an 02 sensor fail I stopped by Advance Auto and picked up a Bosch 13111 and went to Mecedo Motorsports so they can put it in. On start-up the engine would hardly run. They told me to go to the local dealer up the street and get a GM 02 sensor....they let me borrow a car and I went and spent way over $100 for one sensor. Came back, put it in and the engine was perfect.
So don't tell me that Bosch sensors work in everyones car.....you will sound like an idiot because because of what I just told you about my car (PCM).
And a little NEWS FLASH for you.....GM doesn't design parts (their PCM) hoping that a company like Bosch will THEN later on make an 02 sensor that will work. Its the aftermarket companies like Bosch that have to design their parts to be compatible with the GM PCM.......the other way around in how your brain thinks.
Tons of aftermarket parts that companies make are crap and don't work as good as others. Wake up.......Bosch 02 sensors are one of those parts.
Period.
.
That's a great story... But you clearly don't understand how an 02 sensor works if you believe what your typing.
and
I really dont want to argue... Im not trying to say Bosch is the better sensor, because for longevity i do believe the Denso's are superior. Just read what you type before you post it man god.
07-29-2011, 01:34 PM
#32
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2344087 (11.81" long wire) and 2344025 (16" long wire)...are the only two Denso choices for 98-02 F-Bodys.....they fit all positions. Just buy the 2344025 for whatever position you need, the wire will be sure to fit all 4 positions. Zip tie the extra length. I've been doing that for years.
Doesn't matter though......its up to you to get the right wire length........thats why the part numbers are different. Just order the proper Denso.
Amazon.com has Part #2344617 Densos too, right now in stock. $53.00....44 inch long wire.
NEWS FLASH.......BUT THAT PART NUMBER.......DOES NOT FIT OUR F-BODY's......
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Doesn't matter though......its up to you to get the right wire length........thats why the part numbers are different. Just order the proper Denso.
Amazon.com has Part #2344617 Densos too, right now in stock. $53.00....44 inch long wire.
NEWS FLASH.......BUT THAT PART NUMBER.......DOES NOT FIT OUR F-BODY's......
.
Not trying to be a dick I just don't want this guy to go through what I did and get LT's and try a STOCK length wire only to realize its too short.
07-29-2011, 02:58 PM
#34
There probably isn't a huge difference in most of these sensor brands. None of them have been flawless.
07-29-2011, 03:52 PM
#35
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Hmm, just saw this thread.
I replaced both my o2's with densos. The left side denso failed at 3 months. The right side denso failed at 10 months. Both were replaced with bosch 13111 and have been working fine for 1 1/2 years now.
I replaced both my o2's with densos. The left side denso failed at 3 months. The right side denso failed at 10 months. Both were replaced with bosch 13111 and have been working fine for 1 1/2 years now.
08-02-2011, 04:39 AM
#36
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Lol. I guess sum ls1 like denso some like Bosch. My ls1 don't like the Bosch. They only last about a year then foul all my plugs. Went thru 3 sets over 3yrs. Tried denso and ain't had a problem since. 2.5 year on these denso I got in now. Just my past experience with both brands
08-02-2011, 09:34 AM
#37
Just because GM sell something doesn't mean it's "The Best" it means they like most big companies buy in quantities under contract, and they will buy what meets their Standards and usually they buy what is the Cheapest and will work and have a warranty.
So by what I am reading here is that some people believe that GM always has the Best Parts? lol lol lol ha ha ha
So by what I am reading here is that some people believe that GM always has the Best Parts? lol lol lol ha ha ha
08-02-2011, 11:49 AM
#38
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Well I think it's silly to get this wound up about o2 sensors so I went with Bosch since I honestly wanted to separate myself from this argument, the wires are long but nothing some zip ties can't handle but I do have to say, my stock o2's must have been **** cuz when I plugged in the bosch's my idle problem fixed and it felt like I threw in a set of headers, it 'feels' like I gained quite a bit of power.
Now as far as life of them I will have to find out because I just got them yesterday
Now as far as life of them I will have to find out because I just got them yesterday
09-12-2013, 03:46 PM
#39
Gotta bring up this old thread.......TO PROVE A POINT......about Bosch 02 sensors NOT working for some PCM's.
Haz-Mat, 01ssreda4 and km346:
I just had my brand new 390ci installed. The shop that installed my new engine had to replace one of my old 02 sensors because it was damaged. They bought a BRAND NEW Bosch 02 sensor 13111. It's been running rich on that bank, throwing a slow response code and also some other code about a circuit issue or some **** like that. The 5 year old Denso that they reused for the other side......its been working perfectly.
I tried to tell them Bosch sensors don't work with my PCM. They cleared the code a few times and it keeps coming back, yet I'm running rich also, which means there's a problem with the sensor.
I've been driving it but finally today put a new Denso 2344025 in. It instantly ran better and the codes are gone. No smell of fuel anymore either.
So all PCM's do NOT operate the same. Maybe I shouldn't say Bosch sensors are junk....because they do work in other cars just fine. But it's true they are junk for some cars. Therefore, it only makes sense to just buy the CHEAPER Denso sensors that work in all cars.
.
Haz-Mat, 01ssreda4 and km346:
I just had my brand new 390ci installed. The shop that installed my new engine had to replace one of my old 02 sensors because it was damaged. They bought a BRAND NEW Bosch 02 sensor 13111. It's been running rich on that bank, throwing a slow response code and also some other code about a circuit issue or some **** like that. The 5 year old Denso that they reused for the other side......its been working perfectly.
I tried to tell them Bosch sensors don't work with my PCM. They cleared the code a few times and it keeps coming back, yet I'm running rich also, which means there's a problem with the sensor.
I've been driving it but finally today put a new Denso 2344025 in. It instantly ran better and the codes are gone. No smell of fuel anymore either.
So all PCM's do NOT operate the same. Maybe I shouldn't say Bosch sensors are junk....because they do work in other cars just fine. But it's true they are junk for some cars. Therefore, it only makes sense to just buy the CHEAPER Denso sensors that work in all cars.
.
