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Sjsingle, it might be worth discussing with an extrude hone porter to see what they say. I've got a couple of spare Fast LS3 102 LSXR runners that could "sacrificed" to learn if the plastic can take the extrude hone.
just a side note... Great Grandpa and Henry Ford were close buddys well before Ford motor company was even a thought... Brian Wolfe the Ford engineer (and former head of SVT) was my neighbor when I was growing up...John Henricy could be found zooming around in a vette ... another neighbor of mine was Jerry Stals he was one of the 3 engineers who came with the original 5.0L fuel injection set up in 1986... I went to high school with his son Matt... another one of our classmates was Cary Chonaird (ET performance and Mast motorsports)... Kurt Urban grew up in our town as well... But oddly enough I really dident hang out with Kurt until I moved down to North Carolina... It was a pretty crazy neighborhood that I grew up in in regards to cars... we had Ford, GM and Chrysler engineers in my home town... the research and development cars were everywhere..... sorry getting off track here with my reminiscing... I'm kinda like the Forrest Gump of the automotive world..... I just sorta stumbled into some pretty big name folks thru the years...
ASRoff, that's fascinating. Please share more details if you like that quite a list of serious automotive talent.
This is pretty amazing airflow variance between runners ~20 cfm and it's with in 3 cfm afterwards. Also looks like nice gains across-the-board. Screen shot from the video.
Makes me think send a small block Chevy TPI manifold & runners for an extrude hone would probably see some nice gains too.
Up to approximately 1 millimeter (Approximately .040”) is removed, as necessary to improve flow. The plastic is probably thick enough for that.
Media flow pressure available has a range of 200 to 2000 psi. 200 psi seems like a lot for a two piece fast runner. Wonder if a factory one piece runner could handle that?
Isn't a rough surface finish in the intake port better for fuel atomization?
No, fuel atomization is more the function of a carburetor, or injector, not the manifold, or intake port. Roughing the finish does not help anything like that. To test this theory, we replaced the top plate of an aftermarket "Crossfire" intake manifold with a sheet of lexan, so we could see fuel and air moving in the manifold as the engine ran. At idle (500- 700rpm), we could see a little puddling in some areas; but any increase in RPM above idle would completely evacuate the plenum area. No time for anything to collect. The vacuum pressure is just too great, no matter the surface finish.
hmmm
Last edited by 99 Black Bird T/A; 03-23-2019 at 10:12 AM.
Interesting, makes me re-consider the extrude process. I have been quoted $750 from a couple of Top Porters all over the country, same as Extrude wants, also got $350 from a couple of companies so naturally I lean towards the most economical option. But is going cheap (not meant in a bad way) the best option here? Do I need a "Race Port" job which goes as high as $1200, should I have the runners cut back on the entry of the 4150 intake or just have them smoothed (also called knife edged) or just a good clean port job that removes most of the casting marks, widens the runners and polishes most of the 'flow area'?
For a daily driven street truck that just likes to aggravate Mustangs, Challengers, Vettes and Hot Rod Cadillac's I am considering the Extrude process. This will be going on my newly built 427 going into the truck that has a Scat 4.125 stroke crank, big Comp lumpy cam, Dart Heads, Harland Sharp lifters, Weisco Pistons, Scat Rods and other go fast parts. Along with a Built Monster Trans, Circle D Stall, Yukon Posi with 3:73's and new GM Axles.
Also running Pacesetter LT's into dual cats, to a dual inlet/outlet Spin-Tech muffler over the axels with dual tips. A TRUE Dual set up.
I will be running a 102mm Throttle body with a K&N intake tube and filter, also got the X-Link from CBM to run the TB at WOT. Now if I can get this truck tuned it should make over 500RWHP, but I am having some vibration issues right now that I am trying to solve. but when its done, it should a fun ride!!
I guess what I am asking is, do I really need the 750 port job or Extrude Job or jut stick with the 350 job? Cheers Wade, your awesome man, thanks for the hard work!!
Chad
Last edited by ss4chad; 03-23-2019 at 11:38 AM.
Reason: Cant spell
But is going cheap (not meant in a bad way) the best option here? Do I need a "Race Port" job which goes as high as $1200, should I have the runners cut back on the entry of the 4150 intake or just have them smoothed (also called knife edged) or just a good clean port job that removes most of the casting marks, widens the runners and polishes most of the 'flow area'?
For a daily driven street truck that just likes to aggravate Mustangs, Challengers, Vettes and Hot Rod Cadillac's I am considering the Extrude process. This will be going on my newly built 427 going into the truck that has a Scat 4.125 stroke crank, big Comp lumpy cam, Dart Heads, Harland Sharp lifters, Weisco Pistons, Scat Rods and other go fast parts. Along with a Built Monster Trans, Circle D Stall, Yukon Posi with 3:73's and new GM Axles.
Also running Pacesetter LT's into dual cats, to a dual inlet/outlet Spin-Tech muffler over the axels with dual tips. A TRUE Dual set up.
I will be running a 102mm Throttle body with a K&N intake tube and filter, also got the X-Link from CBM to run the TB at WOT. Now if I can get this truck tuned it should make over 500RWHP, but I am having some vibration issues right now that I am trying to solve. but when its done, it should a fun ride!!
I guess what I am asking is, do I really need the 750 port job or Extrude Job or jut stick with the 350 job? Cheers Wade, your awesome man, thanks for the hard work!!
Chad
Chad, that sounds like a really sweet 427 build!
I think the best choice is having the same porter that does the Dart cylinder heads do the matching appropriate work to the intake manifold. That way one continuous intake port path can be designed to work from the carb to the combustion chamber.
Land Speed Cylinder Heads excels at that sort of work. It's very similar to what Brett did at Katech and what he does regularly with excellent results for several serious road racers. He's very good at keeping the level modification a uniform system that works together in my experience. I would trust Land Speed to develop the intake and head porting as a matching system. CNC port dimples can even be done for tweaking heads if desired. Brett's done a fascinating level of work getting my GMPP 243 heads properly sorted out.
Bischoff Engine Service has an outstanding and well known reputation for developing killer combinations. I spoke with Tony Bischoff the owner and briefly discussed my 402 build a while back. This would be another shop, I would trust to develop the intake and head porting. A quality system that has the appropriate level of matched modification done so the heads and intake work together for best results for the dollar spent. Exotic processes like CNC port dimples are offered according to the website.
Mamo Motorsports we know Tony Mamo has an excellent reputation for developing killer combinations using well matched parts. When I talked with Tony about a new intake manifold. He took the time to help me select the appropriate type of Mamo ported intake manifold for my planned 402 build. I would trust Tony's guidance on the appropriate level of port work to invest in for the Super Vic or other manifold and your engine build.
Darin Morgan at Reher Morrison would excel at doing the heads and intake too. When I did my 416 build Darin helped my budget quite a bit with suggestions on where I should and shouldn't spend for my application.
I'm sure TEA would also be an excellent choice. I've had two sets of TEA ported heads that were excellent heads at a very fair price.
That's my best insight on getting the Super Vic & Darts set up for best results
I would think the pressure needed to do a hone job on plastic would be less than needed for a alum ...could they reduce the pressure ?..and being that the pressure is not confined like a oxygen tank....is the comparison a apples to oranges one ?
I doubt it would work on plastic. That 200 psi would be like back pressure and would still probably split the seams.
Something like a sonic welded LS2 intake manifold would be fun to hit with 200 psi
I have no idea if the one piece manifolds runners could handle that.
I think 200 psi would split a Fast intake manifold runner unless it fit into some sort of supporting fixture. I would think the fixture would probably have to be almost like a mold to support.
Fascinating video, ASRoff! Thanks for sharing that. I had assumed they were blasting abrasives through using air or water, so I wondered how bends would affect where the wear happens. But with the heavy goo and slow flow, the process makes a lot more sense now.
Originally Posted by sjsingle1
I would think the pressure needed to do a hone job on plastic would be less than needed for a alum ...could they reduce the pressure ?..and being that the pressure is not confined like a oxygen tank....is the comparison a apples to oranges one ?
This seems like a really good point - their process seems to be using the pressure to drag abrasives across the metal, and since plastic is so much softer, I'd expect that correspondingly less pressure would be needed to remove the same amount of material. A less viscous goo would flow more easily, and thus would create less pressure against the walls. And maybe the abrasives would need to be changed as well... But given the popularity of plastic intake manifolds, maybe it's something they've already developed. It couldn't hurt to ask.
I don't think the open ends really change anything fundamental - the pressure is what it is. They've calibrated their goo to produce that pressure while it pours out the ends.
i have email EH asking about plastic intakes.....no reply .......yet
as far as pressure....I am certain it needs some pressure just to go thru the machine......you can see the hydraulic ram pushing the goo thru in the vid.....maybe a less viscous goo would not need so much pressure
i have email EH asking about plastic intakes.....no reply .......yet
as far as pressure....I am certain it needs some pressure just to go thru the machine......you can see the hydraulic ram pushing the goo thru in the vid.....maybe a less viscous goo would not need so much pressure
03-22-2019, 09:49 PM
