Evening everyone.
So I did a semi rebuild of my engine finding out the aluminum 5.7 is gone and replaced with a 5.3 Iron blocck.
Put new WS6 store high lift HOT CAM in her, new roller rockers, new sheet metal intake she looks good but on the dyno ran HORRIBLY and could not get more than 121 HP Just breaking up so horribly.
So I paid the guy 1140 bucks to make the car worse than it was when I dropped it off by trailer.
So I started digging into it today like I had thought he did but apparently not.
Anyway, that aside, I found the #3 spark plug had never fired even ONE time, it was shiny and new, See photos below........
Also found #3 coil pack had a bent PIN in it probably why the plug never fired, never got the ignition hot signal, so the #2 pin is the computer telling the coil to fire but without main 12V power, not gonna fire.
Also realized that the fuel return purge canister was not connected, somehow that became undone. Not the power connector to it, but the actual hose going to the intake manifold so had a horrible vacuum leak from it,
Also found the intake manifold had loosened up quite a bit, the gaskets were in the correct grooves but crushed and after a few heat cycles I guess flattened out causing the intake to be only finger tight or 1/8th turn past finger tight.
the other 7 cylinder spark plugs were black soot heavily carbon deposits so Ill go get new ones tomorrow or ill try to sand blast these and keep them as a OMG spare
The plugs were all snug and anti seized well, Rockers all seemed fine no wiggling or jiggling around, all the springs were good to go, no loose anything in the valve train. Found a small exhaust leak but that will go away once I buy new headers and that true dual system later on this summer/or just as the heat breaks and temps fall into the 70s and 80s I am not going to do an exhaust system in 100* heat unless I pull the Chevelle out and put the TA on the lift and have AC in the garage from the house.

Back to my ?
With those 3=4 items listed above, would the car have run MEHHHH or would it have been as bad as I experienced? I want to know if I should keep digging looking for more issues, like looking into the cylinders with the scope camera and up at the valves from underneath (Which if the plugs are black soot covered, I would assume the valves and cyl head chamber will be as well until it starts to run right and ends up burning that stuff off with some heat.) JUST AN FYI, the plugs threads are discolored from the Anti Seize not from soot or anything leaking etc.
What do you all think? Gut tell you I should be able to get it running well once I get all new 8 coils, new plugs, make sure the intake is snugged up well and fuel return/purge canister is connected properly?
What does your gut tell you?
Thanks all, Appreciate any suggestions, ideas, thoughts, hell ill even take a random guess if anyone has one cause I just am not sure what else I can look at and dig into other than pulling the cam out, and looking at the lifters, which means yank the exhaust, yank the heads and tear it all completely back down again which I would prefer NOT to do.
My gut is telling me to put the plugs back in, intake, connect everything, intake on, connect all wires and harnesses and fire it up to see what she does and if it still runs like total horrid dookie pile mess, then rip it all back down, cam out, heads off headers off etc. Is that what you would do? That Cool?

Thanks everyone, I hope you all have a great night.

Notice #3 completely brand new, never fired not even a single time. That Coil it was connected to is the next photo with the PIN issue. And its the only no name brand coil.

Coil Pack #3 and to also note, this one is the only one that does NOT say DENSO like the other 7. This one is a no name no part # item, Tested it with a 18V ryobi battery and it barely made a spark just a high pitch whine and the others did the same, probably need a 12V car battery to test it like it would be in the car. PIN is the 12V Ignition + and almost touches the computer signal Pin

J

 

Is the 5.3l in a Fbody? What injectors are you using? Stock fuel system? Has the vehicle been tuned? Tuned after the cam installation?

 

Yes the car was tuned and the tuner had me purchase 58 pound per hour fuel injection clinic fuel injectors and their adapters to fit the Fbody .. car is a 1998 WS-6 A real one not a clone.
the engine now has a sheet metal intake with the typical aftermarket fuel rail setups with the stainless braided crossover hose that most come with. I have the stock injectors still and they did not leak but the fuel injector clinic ones did leak so when I reassemble the fuel system I'll make sure it does not leak I purchased new fatter o ring seals and new U shaped hold downs from Brian Tooley Racing because the Fuel injector clinic injectors now sit up really high and are cocked and at an angle so I think I will start with the stock injectors first because with the included J shaped fuel rail mounts never had any leaking problems only when the FIC injectors went in is what started fuel leaking and for just over 700 bucks that should NOT HAPPEN !!!! But that's the sitch right now.
will that help you provide some ideas? Probably need a quick edit on the tune if I go back to the stock injectors from the FIC at 58 pound to what's the stock 1998 injector rating 28 1/2 I think? 28.6 maybe? Something like that but obviously the tuner would have to dial that back at 58 the car would drown in fuel but ahhh i see that might be why the plugs are completely covered in carbon when they should be whiteish in color not black soot filled mess. Is that what you were getting at?

Thank you Jetech sir.
Let me know if you have any more investigative questions.

Jay.

 

Jay getting #3 firing will definitely help! That's a great find.

​​​​​BTW - good 1998 #28 pound injectors can support ~450 whp IF you have a skilled tuner and fuel system is in good condition. Had stock #26's on my 99T/A's heads & cam set up for 15 years, no issues making ~418 whp. Have #57's on the T/A's current 416 LSA/LS3.

 

Heyyyy Wade!!!!! How are you sir? Was hoping to hear from ya on this one since you seem to like my projects and have some history and skin in this game.....
I still have the stock intake and steam spider with the knock sensor valley plate and stock fuel spider and all clips and all and I went to AN fuel lines but easy to remove the AN to put it right back to accept the stock fuel line spider assembly but I'd really hate to give up all the new stuff if I can use the new stuff I want to but if it won't work then I'll have no choice but I hope I can get the sheet metal intake and 102mm TB to work correctly
tuner went and did the speed density tune so no MAF that I bought the housing and card style MAF for and all I'll just remove it when I put it back together.
Yes #3 being 100% dead will explain the miss but it was breaking up so horribly at 2000 RPM on up it had alot more issues than a single dead hole and it was obvious on the dyno.
Why I asked if the
1. Return fuel line disconnected leaving purge canister disconnected and open to atmosphere...will that cause engine miss issues? or any other issues?
2. Return fuel line not being connected left a 3/8 tube wide open on rear of the intake manifold so massive vacuum leak!!!!
3. Again dead #3 cylinder with bent pin in coil and a spark from my 18V drill battery showed no spark on 3 coils tested but not from a car battery so probably does not have the right amps to generate a coil from firing a big spark but ordered 8 new coils that will be here today so hope those new coils with 15% more spark energy over stock will help her run better and smoother.
so what does your gut tell you Wade sir????
Do i need to dig deeper and pull the heads and all? The rockers are all tight and move freely no coil bind no touching arms on the head walls... tight pushrods (remember those are all brand new parts from summit and ws6 store)
My gut is telling me with all new coils and plugs (plug wires all brand new and tested resistance on all 8 and all were close at 1115 resistance at like 12....11 inch wire length which is okay... more $ would give me better wires but these should be plenty good enough at 10.5mm HP wires.

SO Wade sir.... what do you think? .. We so need to give yyour cylinder heads a new life and I'm sure you want to see them come to life again right?

Thank you sir Wade
appreciate any and all info and what you think is highly regarded. Everything you have told me...suggested with your knowledge and guidance thus far has got me.to.this point (with some others as well) but without your help I'd probably still be assembling it all on the lift...
so talk to me goose.......

Jay

 

One other thing I forgot to mention
I replaced the 3 wire pigtail to the crank sensor and installed a new AC Delco crank sensor and I did not know there was a crank sensor Relearn Procedure so I did not do that. Is that another possible issue causing my engine to break up at 2000 plus rpms?

 

I think the terrible missing is from fuel fouled spark plugs and a dead #3 cylinder. I would be concerned about ruining the #3 cylinder/ring sealing if it is run too much without firing. Any DTC's?
I didn't understand your post about the fuel return lines? Are you talking about the fuel vapor lines? If there is a vacuum port open on the intake the engine will be running lean and the O2 sensors will tell the PCM to richen the ratio. An exhaust leak fwd of the O2 sensors can do this also. Fix the vacuum leak 1st

 

Jetech,
Only ran on the dyno for the tuner, the car was not able to get very far on its own from running so terribly. I drove it 1/10th of a mile and shut it off cause it would just not run barely at all. When I towed it to the tuner shop in south NJ.
So maybe total of 20-30 min max. with the vacuum leak and vapor canister purge valve open to atmosphere which is well more than enough time to make the spark plugs all black, sooty and all. The motor oil looks fine, no burnt smell, no gas smell, no metal content that I could see, I changed it anyway for good measure. Just put mobile 1 back in it, everyone said that break in oil was not needed for a new roller cam so I just got 10W30 mobile 1 synthetic oil is all i have used on this car since I got it. What I find weird is the spark plug was dry and did not smell like gas at all, I get the plug never fired, we have figured that out already by seeing a brand new plug pulled from #3 and the bent pins on the coil and bench testing the coils showed really no spark i could see. (still waiting for new coils to arrive) But why would the plug be dry? Should have at least shot fuel in the cylinder i would think, and to answer your question, that's what was the weirdest thing of all, there were NO trouble codes at all. I should have had a P0303 indicating the coil was not firing on #3 but alas, no trouble codes at all. Car should also have determined the fuel trims would have been wonky because of the vacuum leak but again showed no codes indicating that either.
The tiny exhaust leak I found on I think it was on #8 really small, pin hole size is due to the headers just rotting away being mild steel, and probably were put on the car in the late 90s or early 2000's I would guess, they are so horribly rusted if I hit them with a hammer, id put a hole in the tube I hit, so ill replace them in the fall (Chevelle is on the lift and not easy to move with no engine or trans in it) so ill have to wait until the metal work is done on the Chevelle and then push it out and can do the exhaust headers, and true dual cat back x pipe setup on the TA and while I am at it, I think I am going to pull the trans, replace the clutch, flywheel, and new hydraulic throw out bearing with new lines and make sure the clutch master is in good shape or swap that out as well. Dyno tuner said clutch was slipping, but I never noticed it slipping but perhaps the engine was running SO HORRIBLY on the dyno he mistook the horrible performance for a clutch slip on the rollers. ,I mean seriously, car registered a few pulls and max HP was 121. Torque was about 108 I think. So how you can tell a slipping clutch with such a large amount of engine running problems is anyone's guess.
You can see in the photo attached the purge valve is disconnected, Oversight on my part. Ill take full responsibility on that one, I thought the tube I made that is in one of the rear ports on the back of the manifold was connected but i overlooked it and failed to connect it, the wires were plugged in to the purge valve but the vapor hose to the intake was not. Now the tuner who swore to me he would get my car running well and charged me almost 1200 bucks and got the car back FILTHY dirty like he left the car out in a forest for 3 weeks with the hood up, I spent a while cleaning the engine off, the valley pan was covered in tree leaves and crap, sap all over the intake, everything was just a dirty mess. So I was NOT happy when I got the car towed home. He overlooked the vacuum leak, purge canister, got me to buy these fuel injectors and that's something ill see if I can return them cause 700 bucks for injectors that leak horribly and don't seem to do anything better than the stock ones (at least the stock ones did not leak)
Needless to say I'm not happy with the tuners ability to fix things. So we will see once these items get ironed out one by one if his tuning abilities are top notch which he has a good reputation from a few friends and online which he is worried about his public reputation.
Okay so we narrowed down why the plugs are covered in black carbon soot. Thank you Jetech.....
ill get this back together probably tomorrow if it does not rain or Tuesday and we will try firing her up with everything connected, all new coils and plugs and hope she runs with no fuel leaks with the original injectors with all new O ring seals.
Thanks all, Why I come here, I get great advice from you all, Thank you!

Jay


I really hope this car is fun to drive with the cam in it and makes some music to my ears lumping and loping away at idle!!! Fingers crossed for attempt #2 better than the horrible failure of my first attempt.
Jay

 

From what I understand... this tuning shop installed and tuned your vehicle with the larger injectors.? I can't say why #3 injector is not injecting, but I would check the wiring. Really strange why there are no DTC's. Maybe the tuner forgot to turn the reporting of codes back on. I was thinking maybe the tuner didn't even tune it. How could an experienced tuner miss a huge vacuum leak. That should've been very easy to see especially when looking at a/f ratio.
Jay, I would talk with the owner(of the shop) and let him know what is going on. Ask him to fix it or give a discount for the tuning. Since it wasn't tuned
Let us know what you find

 

Good advice but this ahop is a 1 man operation ( i did not know that before i towed the car down) so I will call him once I figure all this out and finally get her running properly with no vacuum leaks no dead cylinders and all that.
1140 is a crap ton of money and yes Jetech you are spot on.... for WHAT?
I did see the car do 3 horrid dyno pulls and ge was convinced based on the data he saw it was the injectors even though I told him I cleaned them all out with the old tire valve brake cleaner on the red straw trick which made them all spray beautifully they were all clogged a bit and not spraying well so that's why I cleaned them out and they were great.
so you can turn off the cars ability to.throw codes in HP Tuners? That's a new one. When I get it back together I'll check the computer before I start it and see if it has any codes stored in it currently. Due to the fuel leak I never even turned the key on. Just pushed her off the trailer into the driveway and disconnected the battery RI g ht then and have not touched it since I took it all apart on Saturday. Had to work on my f350.dually today for state inspection which took way way way longer than I expected like all these car projects seem to take way longer than you figure vecause everything ends up a pain in the *** or rusted rotted seized bolts nuts clips retainers and so on and on so I'll get back on the car tomorrow after I drop off the truck and get it all back together and make sure the leaks are fixed fuel and vapor purge canister, new coils that showed up today and make sure the intake is not just finger tight on the 6..7 front bolts (the intake gaskets took their original form and grew back to wide fat rectangles so no need to buy new ones)
thank you sir for your help. I'll let you know how she runs and if any codes are present before I start it up and what they say if any are there.
thanks gentlemen....
have a great Sunday evening..

Jay.

 

I said it before and I'll stick to my word. That card type MAF is not going to work properly where it is.

So what happened to your Frost tune?

I'm not sure how this goes from hardly running with a Frost tune, to a tuner, then back to you for diagnosis.

Shouldn't you have diagnosed this first? What did you pay the shop to do? Wouldn't they be paid to make it run right?

Sort of makes no sense.

 

The tune now is speed density and the frost tune did not work with the card type maf so the maf is not doing anything and i plan to remove it since its just an air restriction in the line.
I agree the guy at the shop told me not to worry we will get it running it will all be fine and yet after 1140 it is worse than when I dropped it off so yeah I'm pissed like anyone else would be. They are not responding to my calls or text messages now. How convenient right?
I'll be putting the car back together today and see if I can get it running and running well with no vacuum leaks or disconnected vapor lines and the rest of it.
We shall see what happens next. At least the car has had so little miles on it this past year I won't need an emissions sticker...
Only up side to this mess assuming it runs again...

 

So, number 3 isn't firing, the other 7 are running pig rich, and you have 58lb injectors for a Hot Cam 5.3?

 

Correct, So now that I am getting close to finishing putting it back together I plan on putting the stock fuel injectors back in it with all new O Rings so ensure it seals without any fuel leaks, I also picked up a new Fuel Filter so when I can get the car on the lift Ill put that in and since the fuel in the tank is now about what, 8-9-10 ish months old, I really want to pump it almost empty and get a 5 gallon tank to the station and fill it up and bring it back and put it in the tank so its running more fresh fuel vs that old stuff which can go in the lawn mower or whatever.
I do not see the reason why the tuner said to get 58 pound injectors, Not sure what advantage that would have............. Maybe someone could shed some light on the advantage of that?
Maybe I am thinking too linear that the car can only ingest so much fuel so why such a high pressure injector would work or be needed is something I do not understand.
Injectors I was instructed to get from the tuner are here:
https://fuelinjectorclinic.com/Chevr...S6/IS301-0525H
***NOTE*** Since these were put in the car and used, I cannot return them so there is a load of $ ill never get back.......... So if anyone wants a set of injectors, let me know, I cant use these. Useless to me. Maybe they will work for someone else's setup???
And yes I had to get the 2 flat bladed connector adapters as well to get them to work with the F Body style harness which lifts the fuel rails up very high and the J style hold downs ended up cocking the injectors at an angle and all they did was leak all over the place. I ordered the Brian Tooley fuel rail hold down "U" shaped brackets, but they pushed the fuel rails off to the side and would not work. So that's why I am going back to the stock injectors and the "J" Shaped fuel rail retaining brackets because they did not leak and hope they dont leak now with the new fatter O Rings I purchased for them.
I hope to get the car started in the next few hours after I pump out the old fuel. We shall see.
I just took 2 photos real fast showing my progress, Before I put the injectors in, I am going to go through the torque sequence a 4th time to ensure the intake is seated properly. When I took it off, i guess the gaskets crushed and seated and it left the front 5=6 bolts very loose. Finger tight when I removed them. So a few heat cycles I guess did that? So now that I know i will be keeping an eye on them to make sure they are snug tight to the 89 inch pounds required.
Thanks all..........Fingers Crossed.

Jay

Waiting to have injectors and fuel rails installed. Will check for 89 IN LBS on all 10 intake bolts prior to installing injectors. Car has sat for 17-19 hours so check torque #s first.

SEE!!!! PURGE VALVE NOW CONNECTED........ I am such a tool, I cant believe I did NOT connect this stupid thing, Oversight on my part. BUT the Tuner guy SHOULD have seen this and connected it. Still would not have solved the #3 Cylinder not firing but would have made it run a lot better I would think..... Sore Subject.

 

58lbs are huge! I'm pushing close to 700fwhp with 50lbs injectors. You should be using 28ish lbs. Also at your level a MAF is absolutely not a restriction, I would run one if I was in your shoes. Hopefully you get things sorted out, been watching your threads.

 

Okay here is the sitch....
I put the stock fuel injectors in with all new o rings and surprise

No fuel leaks anywhere. Whew.. not a fan of gas leaking on hot e games and exhaust etc so that part is 2 thumbs up
I drove it around the block and it's sputtering and stumbling bad so I got a code of low voltage from MAF so I went and installed the stock MAF and fired it up again and same thing srumbling and she stays running but poorly.
I wanted to make sure I did not get any misfire codes and none popped up. I made sure there are no vacuum leaks and the PVC system is connected and seems sealed for the most part. I can adjust the lines and make sure connections are all tight. I need to adjust the throttle cable seems a Lil sloppy and a small bit of play in it.
At idle the TPS is showing 0.00% to 0.04% but mostly 0.00 so should I make sure the TPS has a steady reading? MAP sensor is reading 19.7 inches of HG...... is that normal?
o2 sensor output voltage bank 1 = .165V
O2 sensor output voltage bank 2 = .455V
​​​455Vso what do you all suggest. What should I llookat next or what data should I look at to see why again she's running sloppy?

 

She's probably running bad because of the lack of tune on it. Anything thats on there from before is probably junk with all the fixes you had to do.

 

After throwing almost 2 grand into thin air for injectors tuning and dyno pulls and I'm back at where I was before I took it to the guy in NJ so that is NOT what I wanted to hear but unfortunately i think you probably are right.... sadly... this friggin blows *** chunks.....
I just got the throttle and cruise control..TCS cables all fixed so now no throttle cable slop but that of course did nothing for how its running
She is bouncing between 21 and 23 ° of timing on cylinder #1 which I guess sounds about right at an idle speed of 870 / 890 RPMs
​ anyone have any suggestions on what I can physically do in my driveway now? Battery voltage showed 3.88 so I charged it to 11.6 so still low so it's back on the charger for now (red top optima gel battery)
would the O2 sensor have crapped out on me? They are maybe 6 months old
Ohhh and the fuel in the tank is old I need to put fresh 94 in here but I don't trust it will make it to the station and back so would that make it run this horrid?