photopaintball

I was thinking
cam/heads, CAI, lt's

its going in a street car, 91 octane (califonia)

HeapaShifter

iTrader: (2)

Supercharger comes to my mind when easy and reliable are mentioned.

Starz T/A 17

iTrader: (6)

if your in cali the easiest way is either going to be forced induction or N20, most cam head setups that make 550-600 HP are going to run into problems concerning emmissions.

mfroniewski

Hi, im photopaintball's friend, trying to get 500 hp. emissions arent a big deal, cuz its going in a car from '72, so its smog exempt. are there cam/head combos out there that arent too rough at idle that can get me there? I would rather stay away from superchargers, cuz i would be tempted to slap on an intercooler and raise the boost, which my octane limit wont allow...

67Ranger

iTrader: (16)

I would think 500rwhp on a 346 would be near impossible without a power adder, or a really crazy h/c setup. Most people will get about 410 or so with a good idleing cam and a real good set of heads. I would personally just put juice on it and be done with it.

Ace$nyper

iTrader: (8)

I would agree, on a stock cubed LS1.

You could also do as 67 Ranger said a mild build up and a shot of n20.

bene

iTrader: (16)

Termi8tor reached 490 rwhp w/ MS3 cam and terminator heads and he has 346 stock block. It's doable.

Urban Legend

iTrader: (5)

Procharger got me 518 rwhp @ 11 psi (old set up with just exhaust and injectors). But you better have plenty of cash in hand...

BrandonDrecksage

iTrader: (1)

your thinking is a lil backwards. a. high n/a numbers on stock ci require high compression. What your looking for will be pretty radical, with really high compression..which 91 octane won't allow. b. supercharging can be tuned to work with lower octane. c. reliable n/a numbers at that level aren't so good, Your gonna have to spin teh motor pretty high to get the power out, rpms kill motors and make them unreliable.


What I suggest...do a lot of research (I think the highest n/a number on 346ci on stock block is somewhere around 500hp) figure out a budget and then go from there. When your dealing with those power levels, with fi or n/a or even spray..91 octane is going to limit you.

Azar

iTrader: (13)

What the hell is BHP? Isn't that foreign and different from our standard "HP"?


EDIT: Just googled up this answer..

"Brake Horsepower (BHP) is the amount of power that a wheel braking dyno system has to exert to stop the wheels from turning.

If you go for a dyno and the car is put on rollers then it measures BHP at the wheels and the engine HP figure is gotten from a calculation or 'guesstimate'.

If your engine gets taken out of the car and fitted to a 'proper' dyno then it will measure the output of the engine directly in horsepower, kilowatts, lb/ft, ps or whatever the system is set up to display."

staringback05

iTrader: (8)

personally id go with a built larger ci motor....and maybe a little bottle

300bhp/ton

You need to go learn a little about cars

HP in terms of reference to internal combustion engines and cars is ALWAYS Bhp and has been since the 1920's.

there are many forms of HP for different applications such as boat propellers, tuck boats, train pulling power.

But in terms of cars HP is an expression of torque at speed:

HP = torque (lb ft) x rpm / 5252

To derive HP we must measure torque, this is done via a BRAKE device such as a dyno. Hence the B in bhp.

All dyno's are brake devices and it matters not where the reading is taken. Flywheel, proshaft, axleshaft, hub or wheel. It still uses the same process.

You get load bearing dyno's which load the engine by increasing the braking force or drag on it. Typically in the US these are Mustang Dyno's. Hydrolic, water or electromagnetic mechanism may be used. Inertia dyno's like most Dynojets use a static drag brake, a heavy weight. This can not be incresed and readings tend to be higher.

HOWEVER they are still technically Bhp.

So it should really be rwbhp

rw = loaction of measurement (rear wheel)
b = for the type of device used and the type of HP in questoin
hp = for the unit of measurement


If you have difficulty understanding think of it this way.

Is $10000 a lot of money?

Well to accuratly answer it you would need to know what type of dollars are being used:

-US dollar
-Candian dollar
-Australian dollar

300bhp/ton

500bhp at the engine isn't so hard from a LS1. But it will need to be a pretty decent setup, most often using a fairly wild cam, but these can be quite streetable when tuned correctly. Not too sure how well they would be on a carb setup though, as you won't have the same tuning ability.

500rwhp is much harder to do, and in all reality anything designed for the street really isn't going to see a genuine number like that.

There was a dyno recently of a FULL bolt on h/c setup, it had a TSP MS4 and Terminator heads. It made 480rwhp. This is probably about 500bhp in reality.

Due to different HP standards, correction factors and dyno types. Pure numbers mean little.

You need any numbers you compare to be SAE corrected and not STD. Also if no graph smoothing was used then take the numbers with a pinch of salt.

If you are comparing to SAE Net bhp such as used by car manufacturers you really need to look for Mustang Dyno numbers as opposed to Dynojet. Typcially the inertia Dynojets rear comparitivly high, this is just due to how they derive HP and doesn't mean the car really is more powerful.

Example:

480rwhp SAE corrected on a Dynojet. Is about equal to 449rwhp SAE corrected on a Mustang Dyno.

So the answer is full bolt ons (intake, exhaust maninly, but electric water pump, pulley, !air con, !power steering can all make a difference), good set of heads and a decent cam with a good tune.

Remember with that much HP you will need all the supporting mods, such as head studs, oil pump, springs, push rods, timing chain and so on. Plus the rest of the car, suspension, chassis, tranny, brakes.

It should be fairly reliable as long as you treat it as a street engine and not a race engine.

A supercharger or turbo would get you to that power level easier. But at much greater expense (over double). And as long as you don't beat on it, it would be reliable providing it handled the boost ok (not all do). But in reality I don't think it would be any more reliable. Espcially with a centrifugal blower as it requires rpms to make the power.

Also with FI it is very easy to step beyond the accepted limits of the stock internals, which just means borrowed time.

Alternatives would involve a built forged engine and/or a larger displacement unit.

A Ls2 would be a better bet if you don't plan on altering the bottom end. Else check out places like TSP, they sell 402 and 408ci long blocks.

It all comes down to money.

Azar

iTrader: (13)

Ouch, my pride.

Thank you for the informative post, I'd heard of BHP being used in European countries but never really understood. Thanks again!

300bhp/ton

lol

No it is uuniversal, if you ever pick up a broucher from a dealer in the US it will list power as 'bhp SAE Net'

Bhp - as already coverd
SAE - Society of Automotive Engineers
Net - Is the standard set by the Society of Engineers to which HP was dervied (this includes dyno, conditions, location and correction factors amoung others).

In the UK cars are often bhp DIN. DIN is similar to SAE just with slightly different correction values and requirements.

PS = German for HP, is used by some car makers but is not recognised as a standard and in most cases is bhp DIN. There are a whole host of other acronyms from various languages but they all refer to the same thing.

In Oz they generally use kw (kilowatt). HP is a value for engergy, so by using conversion equaltions you can use any other unit of energy. So you can rated lightbulbs in HP if you want and car engines in watts. However the process of achieving the numbers would still be the same, via a brake device.

Other forms of HP include iHP (indicated HP), this was used in pre WW1 cars in England mainly, where HP was calculated on the engine size and expected performance. I think following the old equations a Corevette ZR1 would have around 70ihp - so you see why this system was abandoned.

dhp - drawbar HP is used to measuring HP of trains. They pull a special carriage which creates brake and directly measures HP from it. I think measureing cars in this manor may be a fun idea, although gearing and grip would heavily influence the results.

Biggest thing to remember, is bhp is NOT measured. Torque is measured on a Brake device and HP is thus derived or calculated from it.

Some will claim an inertia dyno like a Dynojet does measure HP, but it doesn't really. It has already had some of the calculations performed because it uses a static rather than variable drag weight.

Confusing isn't it

ibanez7

iTrader: (7)

heads/cam and an ATI Procharger P1sc.

12secSS

iTrader: (30)

I would opt for a stroker instead of a 346, it will be easier and "less" costly to achieve 500-550.

To add to 300bhp/ton - 33,000lbs/ft/minute = 1 HP. Horsepower can not be measured, it is a "guesstimation" based on what one horse can do workwise. This formula is the standard of what a HP is as defined by James Watt.

bjamick

iTrader: (31)

my thoughts are to build a bigger CI motor, then a very nasty H/C setup, with the bigger cubes the motor will not lope as hard as it would with the stock 346 CI motor. But now this does include alot of $$$ but as always said "no replacement for displacement", the car will make torque galore and pull harder then anything on the interstate or at the other end of the track, but hey a procharger setup has also got some $$ involved in it also..

rtr2001ss

iTrader: (2)

My .02 cents, the easiest and most reliable way to get that Power would be buying and dropping a LS7 Crate Motor in. However, this isn't the most cost effective.

Asmodeus

Not if you're talking about 500rwhp, no, there isn't a H/C combo with a good idle that will get you there with stock cubes.