Blakbird24

iTrader: (24)

They are fully welded inside and out. 360 degrees on all primaries on both the head side and the collector side. I myself couldn't figure out how it's done, but my father is a very accomplished welder and explained to me how they do it. He was also very impressed and said that the only headers he's seen that were that well built were custom hot rod headers for show cars. He still doesn't believe the price I paid for them, he thinks i'm lying so he doesn't know how much money I spend on my car.

It's not a percentage. Good headers can make 20hp on a 347 and then go on to make only 8hp on a 408...and maybe make 22hp on a 383. It's all about the peculiarities of the engine and how well the headers exploit that particular head/cylinder combination's flow characteristics.

No, it's the same thing. It's about paying for a guarantee. Whether it be a guarantee that your car will be fixed for free, or a guarantee that your header manufacturer will still exist and care, it's a guarantee that you pay for. In this case, it's a guarantee that costs almost as much as the product itself. If GM charged the same percentage (vs product cost) for a warranty, would you buy it? $50,000 vette + $40,000 warranty = $90,000 vette. Worth it? Not to me.

I see where you are going, but we have to put this in the proper perspective. To make this a valid comparison, you'd have to say: "if GM offered you a brand new Corvette for half price, but you knew that you may not be able to get parts for it beyond one year, would you buy it?".

I would. Because I have the experience necessary to do without the company.

There is no more guarantee that QTP will be there in a year than XS will be there in a year. We are speaking of aftermarket stuff here. Companies (even established ones) come and go.

I'm not arguing that QTP/Kooks/ARH are not "better headers". I'm arguing that they are not TWO or THREE TIMES better, as their pricing would have you believe. Remember what I said: if money were no object, i'd just hand my car to ARH and tell them I want the works.

ChocoTaco369

what? it is too a percentage. if going from a y-pipe to an x-pipe gains you 8 horsepower on a 347, it's going to gain you more on a 408. that is undeniable. why? because it's a proportional gain. it's not a single number.


what are you talking about? it's not about paying for a guarantee. you think QTP's are $250 more because of a warranty? that is just another reason to get name brand headers instead of no-namers like the XS. they may as well be no-name brand because God only knows if they'll be around next year. i'm beginning to think you're not following the argument QTP vs. XS is not no warranty vs. extended warranty. it has nothing to do with that. the QTP's are just all-around better headers. better collectors, they have a real merge, better welds, better company, better warranty, better customer service...there are many reasons to go with QTP over XS. the only benefit of the XS is price. well IMO, saving a few hundred isn't worth it if the company won't back their product - or isn't there to back their product.

this isn't a good comparison, either. QTP vs. XS is more like a corvette vs. a malibu. they both take you from point A to point B, but a corvette will do it better, faster and you'll look a hell of a lot better doing it. the malibu will get you 2 mpg more so you'll save a quick buck.

you would buy a corvette that can never be fixed once it's broken? that's the risk you're taking with XS.


there is no guarantee the sun will rise tomorrow. QTP isn't going anywhere soon. XS could be gone tomorrow. QTP is well established and has been in the market for many, many years. we'll see what XS looks like 5 years down the road. if they're still around, great for them. more competition = better deals for the consumer. however, they're emerging into a very flooded market and it's a long, uphill climb for them.

IQTP isn't nearly double the price of XS the XS are selling ~$450. you can get race QTP's for ~$700. when they're on sale, they're ~$650. $200 - $250 is not double or triple the price. IMO, a lousy $200 is worth the added security and performance gains.

i don't wanna do any of these long, quoted posts anymore. they take too long and i feel they're taking the thread a little off topic. i don't really wanna argue anymore.

Blakbird24

iTrader: (24)

Good then i'll keep it real simple.

1 - Gains from headers ARE NOT a percentage. They are not directly proportional to the size of your engine or ANYTHING else. The gains you get from long tube headers depend on many many factors.

2 - You keep saying that QTP headers are "all around better". There is no proof of this.

Fact - XS headers use the same or better grade Stainless as QTP/Kooks/ARH.

Fact - they are fully welded inside and out with top quality welds. I know this because I have a pair sitting right next to me. Have you ever even touched a set of XS headers?

Fact - they have great collectors. Whether or not they are better than or as good as QTP/Kooks/ARH collectors has yet to be proven, so again your assertion is subjective.

The above is all fact, I have left out any of my opinions so as to keep this argument useful.

I cannot speak of the customer service of SS Autochrome or QTP because I have never called upon either of them for anything. Have you ever tried SS Autochrome's customer service?

That said, I see no reason to pay an extra $250-$500 for any other set of Stainless Steel headers. If we were talking $100, i'd be tempted. But no amount of customer service is worth doubling the price of the product.

I never said I would buy a Corvette that can never be fixed. I said I would buy a corvette that I knew I may not be able to get factory parts for. That's totally different.

So in conclusion, there is no proof that QTP/Kooks/ARH are better built headers. There is no proof that QTP/Kooks/ARH headers produce consistent gains over XS headers. Finally, there is no proof that SS Autochrome has poor customer service. You can give me your opinion until the sun blows up, but that don't mean **** to me. So why again should I pay $250-$500 more for the same thing I already have?

SouthFL.02.SS

Pointless arguing on all parties. I saw significant hp and tq gains on my QTP HVMC swap a few years ago. That's all. That's my answer to the original post.
-unsubscribed. what the hell. don't listen to the guy who drives a mazda now, yet tried just about every intake and exhaust bolt-on combo possible on his LS1 Fbod and documented the findings. yeesh.

ChocoTaco369

sigh. the argument was y-pipe vs. x-pipe, not header vs. header. switching from a y-pipe to an x-pipe will not gain as much power on a 347 as it will on a 408. that is a fact.

also, stock manifolds to headers on a 347 will not yield gains as large as a stock manifolds to headers swap on a 408. shall i quote myself from above? i think i will:
what is a proportion? it is a ratio, or a fraction. what do you get when you divide the numerator by the denominator? you get a decimal answer. what do you get when you multiply that by 100? you get a percentage, in this case, a percent increase in horsepower. sometimes it helps to look at things as a % increase or decrease in power.

sigh. yes there is. they have a merge and a velocity spike in the collector. the XS do not. QTP's will net more gains than the XS headers. there is no argument against that. QTP's also have the best, straightest and most perfect welds i have ever seen. from pics of the XS, the welds are okay, but nothing like the QTP's.

nah, but i've heard enough to want to stay away. SS Autochrome used to sell a lot of products to the ricer crowd, and the general consensus was that he was greatly disliked. that's why ebay headers were initially received so poorly - they were an SS Autochrome product, and he had a horrible reputation. this seems to be the first nice product he's ever came out with, but i'd be afraid to deal with his customer service from what i've heard.

so that means you didn't follow the rules of my analogy, making whatever you said completely useless. if you're not going to follow the rules, you may as well not even bother.

Blakbird24

iTrader: (24)

HAHA. If the argument doesn't suit you, change it. Good job.

Now this really is pointless because you are just going to keep changing what you said until it's true.

What the hell does y-pipe to x-pipe gains have to do with gains from headers?!

That is correct, and not part of our argument, so don't waste our time.

If you think you are going to make me look less credible by talking down to me, you are wasting your time.

I know what a proportion is!!!!

I'm going to get a picture of the inside of the collector of my XS headers and you are going to have alot of explaining to do. You obviously know absolutely nothing about these headers.


COME ON MAN!!! From what you've heard? Ricer crowd? You sound like you fit right in when you say that.

HUH?! Now i'm totally lost.

How can you take a presentation of facts and turn it into this?! I've never seen anything like it!!

I agree with what everyone else is thinking right now...we need to stop arguing about this because it's getting bad real fast!!

Blakbird24

iTrader: (24)

Agreed.

I'm not in any way saying you're lying, or wrong, or anything. But one dyno graph of one car that I know nothing about is not proof of anything in my mind. You made more power with QTP. Maybe I will. But maybe I won't. Even if I do, maybe it will be 15hp, but probably it will be more like 4hp. If I found out that I spent $300 on 4hp, i'd be pissed!

ultraz

iTrader: (4)

so what i comes down to is that QTP sells an "all around" superior product according to Choco. 1 dyno is a good start, but in order for something to be proven, it must be repeated time and time again, until the outcome is apparant. Scientists dont do simply one experiment. and call it fact, Although Choco with his great knowledge still cannot grasp the most basic of concepts.

I had a dyno sheet where it looked like my tq was over 450, the fact was that it was a computer error, the Tq spike means nothing.

Country Boy

iTrader: (24)

Wow.... that dude has a hard on trying to "prove" the QTPs are better. It just sounds like someone needs to justify their money. Dont get me wrong, they are a nice header but the XS is the best bang for the buck. The XS have the best welds Ive seen and they are a better grade stainless than the QTPs.

SladeX

This is pointless. Get whatever you are WILLING to afford. Headers are headers, even the worst will still net good gains. HVMC will net you a bit more power, but unless the price difference is something you are willing to work with, don't let ANYONE force you into a purchase you don't want.

BigArchidia

EBAY headers as a rule = Made is China.
Ebay headers as a rule = Slim to none customer service.
Ebay headers as a rule = No cats or emissions fittings.
Ebay headers as a rule = Inferior materials.
Ebay headers as a rule = One size fits all.

All this is why the prices are cheaper than good ol U.S. made header systems. You can argue till you're blue in the face but these are FACTS. If you can't afford to buy American made performance products and are will to spend less while giving your money to the Chinese, be my guest. I wouldn't do it. I'd rather push my car then buy performance parts Made in China.

Country Boy

iTrader: (24)

1. I know OBX are made in China, but I dont think the XS are..
2. I had ZERO CS when my Kooks headers rubbed on my K member.
3. Is that a bad thing? XS are coming out with a catted Y in the future.
4. How? XS headers are a BETTER grade stanless than Kooks, QTP and everyone else. Do your homework.
5. Since when are headers made on the car? Try again.

China parts... Guess where ALL your stroker cranks come from... Youd be suprised what comes from China that you dont know about. Its funny... how many "Made in the USA" things are in your house... lol Hell, your car isnt even made here..

BigArchidia

Country Boy, XS headers are made in China. You can bank on that. Their prices are by far the biggest giveaway. U.S. based companies producing their products here (with U.S. made components) don't have the ability to buy S/S at cheap prices. Most wouldn't want to anyway because the material quality is inferior, regardless of grade. They especially don't have the luxury of paying their highly skilled work force a dollar an hour like the Chinese do. Ebay header suppliers also have no storefront to speak of, thus the lack of customer service.
Yes, I know certain brands of stroker cranks are made in China. Who cares. It's no different then Chinese made headers. I'm also well aware of how inferior those parts have been compared to their U.S. made counterparts.
As far as customer service is concerned, a well informed consumer will take the time to check into which company provides the best customer service.

GMmexican

iTrader: (7)

Im personally going with qtp headers, for the fitment/look/finish/hvmc.....i want a superior product thats gets me the most power. I know im spending more and if that worries you, then your in the wrong hobby.

Blakbird24

iTrader: (24)

I'm sorry but this is just incorrect.

The fact is that XS headers are manufactured in North Carolina. It is also a fact that they are made using 321 stainless, and are welded complete inside and out. They do have a velocity spike in the merge, and they also have a beefier mounting flange than any other header save ARH.

Do you have a set of XS headers? I already know the answer to that because if you did, you wouldn't have posted. Please don't post information about a product unless you have personal experience with it.

2000Z28ls1

iTrader: (18)

whats all the post battling about A header is a header there are 4 pipes that merge into one and connects to the rest of your exhaust sure you may gain 5 hp for the extra 250 bucks. what else can you get for 250 that'll give you more power?Now im not an expert but why are welds SO almighty important not like all the power form your car is gonna blow through the weaker weld. correct me but that is how I see it I still might buy QTP just cause its best but I kinda like spending under 500 bucks for the XS and then spend the rest of the money I saved on some something cool. the warranty thing how often will a set of headers cause something to go wrong that wasn't gonna go wrong before the headers?The thread started is it true that they make more power like some stated sure it does depending on what the set up of the car is if car A has heads and a cam where car be has a lid and cat back Sure it'll make more power with Headers maybe the HVMC adds more percentage gains so the more power you make the more power it adds.

2000Z28ls1

iTrader: (18)

don't know why I posted all that but I need a few more posts. But I'm not bashing ether header different strokes for different folks as a lot of people say.depends on your budget a lot to.

GMmexican

iTrader: (7)

To make big power with a street motor, you need an exhaust that sucks...literally (David Vizard quote). When running a cam with lots of overlap, backpressure is not your friend. But when building a daily driven street car, too free flowing of an exhaust often means too loud. Not in my case.

You want the best headers you can find. For an LS1 F-body, it would be QTPs or Kooks in 1 3/4" size. For a Vette, the LG Pro Long tubes reign supreme. A high velocity merge collector on the header collector is typically worth some nice gains in the mid-range and is known to squeak out a few extra ponies up high as well.

Blakbird24

iTrader: (24)

See now we can focus on the point of this argument...I have no doubt that some people will see more power with QTP or Kooks over XS. But it's not guaranteed, it's not going to be consistent, and it's definetly not going to be much. So are you willing to pay $300-$500 more for a product of the same quality just because you know there's a chance you may see an extra 5hp out of it?

Maybe it's just me, but I say NO WAY IN HELL.

GMmexican

iTrader: (7)

its guaranteed you will gain more hp with qtp over pace setter.........i have never seen a dyno where the qtp's didnt provide any power gain, and with a good tune thats even better.