Shaun
So really it was a cam only car
Was it set a +0
How did it idle ?
Thanks
JOhn

 

Yes, it's a cam-only car.
I believe the owner is now buying ported 5.3 heads that should be on in a few months.
Yes, it's on a 110ICL. Actually, it degreed in on a 110.5ICL.
It actually idled damn good considering the SLP mass-air was stuck at 3.8 volts. LOL
It idles steady at the stock idle setting. No drilling of the TB was needed..or messing with the idle setting at all. It lopes pretty good, but there is no surging or any other issues.

 

TTT

Since there are many folks who may have missed this thread, I am giving it a bump. I have some new material I will try to add soon.

 

This is a stupid question. What in the hell is amp?
I missed this post until now and the first post totally. If you have a link to the first post I would love to have it.

 

I'm not sure what you are talking about when you refer to amp? Can you post a quote or something? The first thead was locked.

https://ls1tech.com/threads/showflat...t=all&vc=1

The first post in this thread basically sums up the technical content of that thread.

 

I spent 2 hours reading this entire thread last night and since I got done at 4am, I figured I would post this after I slept a little

J-Rod, I downloaded your VE timing spread sheet and I started playing around w/ numbers last night. I plugged in the numbers for my TR224 @.050 and got this:

Intake Duration - ID 224
Exhaust Duration - ED 224
Lobe Center Angle - LCA 112
Intake Centerline - ICL 108


Intake Valve opens - IVO 4 BTDC (- indicates ATDC)
Intake Valve closes - IVC 40 ABDC
Exhaust Valve Opens - EVO 48 BBDC
Exhaust Valve Closes - EVC -4 ATDC (- indicates BTDC)
Exhaust Centerline - ECL 116
Overalap 0 degrees

So I understand what it all means, but I'm wondering what you want IDEALLY for a cam. J-Rod, I saw you say you wanted IVC and EVO as close to 45 as possible. Is this just a guess or is there proof that this method works? Also, when is overlap too much? There's got to be like a point of dimenishing returns. Just trying to figure all this out

 

Sorry, I am probably just missing something.93 Pony -

J-Rod,
For those 2 cams I'd reverse the lobes & keep the LSA/ICL the same.
Yes, I do have larger profiles available...with just as much thought put into them. As of yet, nobody has wanted one.

 

I think that was just a typo and should read reverse the lobes and keep the LSA/ICL the same. That was in reference to a G5X2.

As for an ideal cam, call Ed @ Flowtech. I know that he and Sean (93Pony). Don't favor many of the wide LSAs on cam since they feel that if you get the VE's right, you can have a narrower LSA, but have more power and a more stable idle, but still have a lopey cam.

There is no hard fast rule of "always put your IVO @ 45" or anything like that. Look at 93Pony's cam specs, and plug them into the spreadsheet. You will see where he likes to keep his VE's. Talk with Ed, and he'll grind you a custom cam, you'll most likely look at the specs and go but Ed' knows how to make cams work, and how to make power (ask the Ford guys). As for a "box" cam look at the TR 230 /111 +0 use that cam to see a better example of the "better VEs" they are talking about. Also, if you look at 93Pony's posts you can see why he feels that way.

I think thinking outside of the box about these things is a good thing, and I encourage folks to give some thought to it. Don't get hung up on LSA. Look at your VEs and maximize efficency there. Also, don't assume the way to more power is a bigger lobe. Think smarter, not bigger...

 

I thought I would bring this post back too the top with regards to a few of the things I have seen down here in Australia.

I visted one of the shops here in Sydney with Peter (PlanB), and they showed me some of the things they are up to down here. In talking with the folks, quite honestly they laugh at our cam specs. "Big" in the states is a baby cam here.

They can't belive the ridiculous ammount of LSA we have on our cams. When you look at some of the cams they are running down here, and the LSA and ICL, if you belive what you read in 99% of the cam threads you tell yourself "there is no way this cam can run". I'm here to tell you that not only do they run, they work fine. In fact they work better than many of the cams I have seen in the states. They make more power, and they drive better.

I personally drove a Holden with an automatic the cam specs were 232/232 108LSA and I don't know the ICL, yes, pick your jaw up off the floor it was an automatic car. It idles at 875-900 RPM, and they haven't finalaized the tune. It didn't buck or kick, and by comparison it sounded about like a T1 cam or say a 224 on a 112 on this car with a full exhaust. The car has abundant torque, and pulled like a freight train for a 3600-3800 lbs car, and had ZERO drivability issues. The dyno here in Australia are more conservative than a dynojet. Typical loss is 22% or so. On a dynojet in the states, one of these car would most likely make around 470-500 RWHP / 450 lb ft of Tq (with ported LS1 heads). They back up the wheel dynos with engine dynos also. In fact most of the H/C packages are dyno'd on the engine dyno, and the tune perfected, and then the whole assmebly is installed and any "final adjustments are done.

If you want a cam with some "chop" here you end up with a 242/242 106 LSA 103ICL or bigger.

The "big" cam they showed me was a 273/273 106LSA, (and yes, all these specs are @ .050). The 232 would probably fit without fly-cutting, but it would be too close for safety sake, and flycutting is best to give you some breathing room.

They run cams all the way down to 100 or so LSA 95ICL depending on the applications. When we started talking about proper valve events, these guys are all over that. They completely get it from what I have seen.

I looked over some of the speed density coversions, and that looks really cool. They showed me about 100-200 MAF sensors laying on a shelf, as every car that comes throught the shop gets converted over to speed density.

I am going to go watch a dyno this week of a big cam car with the 8 individual throttle bodys setup. According to Peter and the locals, you hit the key and it fires up, and idles just like a motorcycle (brrrrrrrrrrrr).

I posted this because so many folks have gotten hung up on the notion that you must have a 114LSA to get a good idle,and to drive it with an automatic. I am here to tell you that this is complete and utter nonsense. I witnessed it with my own eyes, I have driven a car with a setup like this, and quite honestly it works.

All I can say is you need to start listening to Ed at Flowtech, and some of these Australian guys.

I've said it once, and I'll say it again. Forget LSA think proper valve events. LSA is a byproduct of a properly selected valve events. You don't design a cam around LSA. LSA is what comes out in the end after you get all the "important stuff" figured out.

Stay tuned for some really "big" cams making really big HP in the not so distant future in the states...

 

Thanks for the information. Are these cars tuned with ls1edit? When are you going to start selling those 200 MAF sensors in the states?

 

excellent update. we have known for a while those ausies have got their game straight when it came to these motors and esp speed density. i always figured my 110 lsa cam in my auto would be ok great info!

 

So, is everyone agreeing that the LS1/6 is a "Smallblock Chevy"- i.e. same cam rules apply?

J-Rod - How do they adjust for the low map at low rpm idle - as far as the automatic tranny requirements? I know very little about automatics but I realize they require vacuum.

I wouldn't follow the Aussies belief in MAFLESS tunes for the Street.

joel

 

I would personally have to see the person install a 248/248 .620/.620 lsa 106 into a 346ci and watch them tune it. Not a A4, but a M6. Especially with ls1edit. I am not saying it is not possible, but b4 I talk my tuner into ordering me a 266/266 .650/.650 lsa 106 I want to see it work in someone else's car first..

 

J-Rod,

As far as the tight LSAs, I blame it on the Coriolis Effect. Flow below the equator reverses. Toilets are a good example; you noticed they spin clockwise when you flush while north of the equator they spin anti-clockwise. I suppose that has an effect intake flow and on cam timing also.

quote: LSA is what comes out in the end after you get all the "important stuff" figured out.

Yes, of course! Isn't LSA a dependent variable?


So how was the beer?

 

These guys tune with LS1edit. I sat around while they pulled it up, and they started showing me how they do it. It takes about 2 minutes longer to do a speed density tune over a MAF tune. They claim the cars run, and idle better. No real increase in HP, but the car "feels" better according to those with it in operation.

Again, I am going to watch a dyno run this week of a big cam and a 8 runner mainfold. I'll let y'all know how it goes.

 

Please keep us posted. In theory your ideas should work, but the LS1 seem to have a mind of its own.

 

I don't think its that the LS1 has a mind of its own. I more attribute it to folks doing camshaft design in a monkey-see monkey do sort of fashion, and using the wrong things in a cam to determine proper cam design. An ls1 is an engine plain and simple. The rules are pretty straight forward.

 

Then what are the Auzzies running in their 400ci plus motors for the street? Do you have any examples?

 

so why hasnt anyone sent their pcm and ordered a cam from these aussie ls1 shops? with their mail order tune with one of "their" off the shelf cams, it should be an easy combo to match. again thanks jrod for pushing the info onto this board. it seems like we are on the brink of figuring out what it takes to run these cams and have opened the door to what the ls1/6 motors are truely capable of.

 

My 422 n/a ran a solid 258/262 on 108lsa .650” lift 680 fwhp at 6,800rpm. It drove nice with 8tb’s a little ugly with the stock LS6 intake though, still drivable. I’ve since pulled the engine and I’m in the middle of putting a 4 link rear end in. It was a little too strong for the street on our size tyres.

Glad you’re enjoying it over here J-Rod.