camarosam22

Check out ERL performance. They make a 500ci ls1, but it costs 13 grand.

Steve - Race Eng

iTrader: (1)

If you supply me with a block:

Sleeves $800
Machine work, installation, decking $750

So the basic charge is $1,550 not including stress relief.

Stress relief, mandatory on new castings, highly recommended for used $150.
Stress relief is done twice, once after rough machining again after sleeve installation before decking. The dry liners are holding up fine at 950 to the wheels at 4.125" bore.

Optional:

Cut rod clearance notches $75

The wet sleeves are roughly a grand more. For those with cracked LS7 blocks, the MID is the perfect solution to getting the block back into service. Wet and dry liners are 5.800" long for improved piston support with long stroke cranks. Stock LS2 sleeve length is 5.450", Warhawk 5.375", LSX (new castings) 5.500".

Steve

ERL Performance

Here at ERL we have several applications to choose from but the Dry Sleeve set-up we have is also 1550.00 retail but ours includes the following:
- Sleeves
- Installation of the sleeves
- Dlock is decked
- Hot tanked
- Stress relieved
- Rod Bolt Clearanced
- Rough Bored to desired bore size

You can check out our different processes and products on our new web-site at www.erlperformance.com.
We are located right outside of Louisville, KY in Southern Indiana.

armyspeedfreek

iTrader: (1)

and there ya go

S10xGN

iTrader: (11)

Great discussion! Could you clear up some things? The difference between "dry" and "wet", and will these sleeved motors cool OK in 100° heat with 90% humidity on the street?

TIA!

Russ

regency

iTrader: (15)

thanks so much guys!

also what are you doing when you "stress relieve"

108dragon

iTrader: (5)

I have an LS3 block and was thinking about going with the 4.1" 427 too. Problem is with the stock sleeves. Maximum safe overbore is .010" over the stock 4.065" bore. At 4.075" or more the chances of bore distortion and/or liner creep are high. Even higher if you add forced induction or nitrous to the equation.
I'm leaning toward a darton lined block or just bitin' the bullet and buy an LS7 crate engine.

novaflash2002

iTrader: (51)

thats not entirely true. the block is made around the sleeves. mimimun wall thickness is .080, there are some guys that have taken the bore out to 4.100. ls1 sleeves can only be bored .010. tsp takes their 427 to a 4.080 bore without any problems.

108dragon

iTrader: (5)

Perhaps I needed to qualify my statement:
The cylinder wall thickness is only, what .100"? Whether it is "entirely" true or not, it is THE reason and only viable arguement against boring out the stock sleeves, running the 4.1" stroke at 427+ cubes, and FI/nitrous. Enough credible techs and engineers have stated that "it isn't a stable platform for forced induction or nitrous" to make me think twice about investing good money into that setup when almost the same money could get me into a block DESIGNED for this application. The question wasn't whether it could be done or not. The question was whether or not putting the **** to it with FI or nitrous was a good idea, and why.
In a phone conversation, Texas Speed and Performance THEMSELVES told me that it wasn't a good idea to put FI/nitrous to this assembly. The reason they gave me was that even the forged JE piston that I have for this application was too thin to take the pounding. They are the only ones to say this. EVERYONE else has told me that the risk of losing the engine to cylinder deformation or liner creep was too high. And given a choice between trying it like that, or relining with a Darton sleeve for this application, the relining is a FAR better and safer bet for the investment.

Steve - Race Eng

iTrader: (1)

I'm pretty certain the L92 and LS3 blocks share the same liner. The liner itself is thick enough to bore to 4.100". However, the liners are out of position - they move out of position during the casting process. This means when the liner is bored to size the wall thickness will vary. In other words, if the liner were in the correct position and bored to 4.0625" at the factory the wall thickness would be .100" with the sleeve bore concentric with the outside of he sleeve. This is not the case however with the blocks I have machined. The sleeves can be and are out of position far enough so you may end up with .140" wall thickness on one side of the sleeve and only .060" on the opposite side. This is what is going to limit the max. overbore on these blocks.

The Darton Seal Tite dry liner that I use and spec'd for Darton has an outside diameter of 4.325" in the piston thrust area. At 4.125" bore the sleeves will have a .100" wall thickness. Since the sleeves are put in the correct location during machining, the sleeve wall thickness is the same everywhere after boring to size.

The Darton Seal Tite dry liner is so strong that I take them out to 4.185" for normally aspirated use. The Darton ductile material is roughly three times the strength of the stock cast in gray iron sleeve. The only time I have had one fail is when a piston broke. Even then I was able to repair the block and put the thing back into service.

The Darton Seal Tite dry liner has sealing grooves on the exterior on the lower part of the sleeve. I have attached a photo so you can see what I am referring to. The sealer used during installation forms a virtual oring in these grooves. This feature prevents oil from creeping up from the crankcase which would form an insulating barrier between the sleeve and the block preventing proper heat transfer.

The MID wet sleeve, I am one of the patent holders, does not rely on the block for strength. The sleeve is in direct contact with the coolant, no surrounding aluminum. The MID sleeves have an outside diameter of 4.600" for a wall thickness of .2375" @ 4.125" bore. To give you a reference a 4.875" diesel tractor pull sleeve .1875" wall thickness, will take 125 lbs. of boost.

All of the LS MID wet sleeves are phosphate coated to help prevent rusting on the exterior surfaces for those used in racing where only water is allowed.

Steve

108dragon

iTrader: (5)

ok...three good reasons not to use an overbored LS3/L92 block at 427cid for FI/nitrous. And a good reason to sink my investment in an MID sleeve setup as opposed to an LS7 block.
Two of the three shops that I have spoken with concerning the Darton sleeve kits told me that they were waiting for sleeve kits specifically for the LS3/L92 -they were "still in development". The last shop "LMS" in Las Vegas said that he could install the LS1, or LS2, kit. So the LS3/L92 kit has been released for sale, I take it.

Steve - Race Eng

iTrader: (1)

I don't know why someone told you there is an LS3 L92 MID kit in development. These blocks take the LS2 LS7 MID sleeves. There is a problem relating to the out of position sleeves as I mentioned in my previous post. Some L92 blocks have the stock sleeves far enough out of position that the block will not clean up when machining for the MID or dry liners for that matter. I have to end up juggling the position to get it to work. The LS2, LS7 and LS1 blocks do not have this issue.

My order of preference for MID installation:

LS1 - no cast in breather holes makes this the strongest of the easily available blocks.

LS2 or LS7 - I prefer the LS2 because there is a bit more material around the center main bearing bulkhead.

L92 LS3 - would be last on this list.

There is one other block and that is the LS7 race block. This block, like the LS1 has no breather holes, not even the drilled hole as in the LS1. These blocks are very expensive new. I have one in stock.

Steve

novaflash2002

iTrader: (51)

I have a 427 that texas speed built. the reason they dont recomend fi is they use a very thin ring, and a long rod 6.200. with that long rod, it only leaves about 5/8 of an inch is piston face thickness. if you use a 6.125 rod, you can have a thicker faced piston allowing you to use fi. i have sent alote of time on the phone with wiseco designing pistons for my l92-ls3 block. it has already been bored to 4.080, but i am gonna give it a light hone and take it to 4.085.

108dragon

iTrader: (5)

Got no reason to lie to you:

On Wed, Dec 17, 2008 at 1:53 PM,
wrote:> Hello,> The LS3 block is essentially the same as the Denali 6.2 aluminum item. Do> they have a part number for the Denali 6.2 block?>> thanks again,
> Corey No part # for the Denali either. They are supposed to be getting a used block from Haltech in the nextfew weeks. It will take a few more weeks, maybe a coupld of months,to get the correct sleeves for the LS3. If you are interested, we can contact you when the MID Sleeves areavailable for the LS3. Let me know if you need any other parts for this build up. Thanks! -- Eric's Performance Parts, Inc.877-772-0338http://ericsperformanceparts.comhttp://stores.ebay.com/Erics-Performance-Parts

This was one of the communications I was referring to. The other, I'm having trouble finding. -tons of emails in my hotmail box. I think it was Atomic Speedware.
Is there a way to measure the alignment of this LS3/L92 block prior to sending it to you for sleeving? I think I'm going to need the bay to bay breathing capability as I'm sure I'm going to get some amount of blowby with a forced induction setup. The oil return from the blower will probably help vent the crankcase gasses too.
Tried calling you. Need to get something together with this 427 build. I'm not really trying to put this Novi 2000 to the LS1 in my Z28. It's not that I give a rats *** about the LS1 as much as it is embarrassing to be on the side of the road with a shelled out engine. And I would prefer to have something ready to drop into my car before pulling this LS1 as I dispise downtime. -personal issue. lol
The only other option I have readily available to me is an iron 6.0 liter shortblock on a engine stand in my shop. Not trying to go that way either, as I want to save some weight with the aluminum block, and I want a 427cid.

108dragon

iTrader: (5)

The pistons I have are set up for the 6.125 rods. They still said the setup was dicey for the FI install. Especially running better than 10 PSI. I have a set of JE pistons for 4.125 bore with 6.125 rods. Doesn't look any better. But the installed comp. ratio is lower. What Steve-Race Eng is saying about the stock liners isn't instilling any confidance with them either.
What did your custom pistons run you, if you don't mind my asking?

novaflash2002

iTrader: (51)

they only run about $110 a piston. i get discounts so i payed alittle less, but that not a bad deal on custom pistons. If it was a car that i would drive over 1000 miles a month i would worry, but i foregot to mention that i talked to diamond and total seal, and they said those pistons and rings in a tsp 427 would take a max of a 150 shot with an excellent tune. I bet that this will start an argument, but i did my research. i think that tsp doesnt want anyone running nitrous for a liabilty issue.

108dragon

iTrader: (5)

I figured the liability issue was at the heart of the matter too. The JE pistons I have are thin through the tops as compared to a GENI or II piston of the same make. But I personally didn't see an issue with FI or nitrous. I was simply told otherwise. Maybe I'll go ahead and run 'em and just have the 346 ready just in case it shells out.
I drive and street race my care. She ain't no garage queen. And it shows. I'm having hydraulic clutch and rear end (gettin ready to grenade) issues. But I'm pushin 400+ rwhp and I wouldn't hesitate to distance race her city to city or cross country. I just need that confidance in the FI 427.

wheels 2

Back from the dead.So if you built a 427 ls1 with about 9:1 - 10:1 with some boost would it be ok or would it be unsafe.

novaflash2002

iTrader: (51)

with after market sleeves on any block it would be fine.

Bader-X

iTrader: (2)

and if possible how much for a 427 LS1 short block with darton dry ..eagle or compstar crank and crank and rods ... used block without core