The 4.6 was not actually developed to be a mustang motor at first. IIRC it was designed to be a motor for one of the lincoln luxury cars or a crown vic or something. And as far as the 5.4 in the cobra r, it was much more than a cowl hood. the 5.4 does not fit between the strut towers in the mustang because it is so wide. They had to do some major suspension mods to the mustang to get the 5.4 to fit. All I was saying, is that the 4.6 could be a little bit longer, and the bore could be bigger giving it more displacement. .02

 

Current LS1 owner, former LT1 owner, multiple sbc owner, also multiple na and power adder mustang owner.

They can both be fast as ****!!

It's all in the combination. Although stock for stock, I've never seen a slow LS1.

I've owned many a mustang that started out slow(brings to mind my loaded aprox 3700 lb 95 GT)
and the benefit to the mustang Is that a guy like me (not a mechanic) can do a heads cam swap with no problem, change the exhaust without breaking a sweat, change a t-5 or tremec in about 3 hours tops!!

took me over 4 hours to change plugs on my 99 TA!

About 3 hours to change plugs on my 95 Firehawk.

they've both got advantages and disadvantages.

Lets just shut up and go race! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="gr_images/icons/cool.gif" />

 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by danimal95:
[qb] [QUOTE]Originally posted by DailyAluminumBlock:
[qb] What kind of times?
I've seen more than 2 in the 106-109 range factory stock."


BS, the quickest i've seen one was 106 with a profesional driver, and DRs, most and pretty much all trap 103s-105s, Done some research on these, so no they are not running stock LS1 times... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="gr_images/icons/tongue.gif" />

<small>[ February 19, 2003, 08:15 PM: Message edited by: CrazyBosnian ]</small>

 

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Fenris Ulf:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by The302Riddler:
<strong> Here you go, look at this mustang,
<img src="http://www.cafords.com/images/john91coupe/hi-res/TN_Image024.JPG" alt=" - " />
This Mustang shown above runs 9's in the 1/4 mile, and is also very streetable. Here is the link to the full website.

http://www.cafords.com/images/john91coupe/hi-res/

This by the way is a 302 block stroked to a 331. So it is a 302 based engine, not a 351 based winsor engine.

Hope you guys enjoy.

Josh </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Nice blower. Look at the title of the thread again... </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">OOOOOO Josh got OWNED!! AHAHA <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_cheers.gif" /> Mustangs BLOW! <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_cheers.gif" />

 

hmmm Anyone here that thinks a N/A ford small block can't run well, if you're in houston I think you need to catch up with Titanium Barchetta on the streets (or in the Texas Section) and if you're not, well he's been known to dirve quite a ways for a race so look him up anyways ;-)
However, mod for mod the LS1 will make more power, The ford can get damn close with some of the aftermarket heads out there<ford aftermarket vs. gm ported i mean>. <img border="0" alt="[judgement]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_judge.gif" />

 

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by racinrick:
<strong> took me over 4 hours to change plugs on my 99 TA!
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Uhhhh... I seriously hope that was your first time to change them. It took me 2 hours my first time, and now it's down to about 45 minutes...

 

If you want to drag the mod motor into this ...

That engine the proverbial jack of all trades. The 4v design is great for flowing air then Ford chokes it by using a tiny bore. The ohc valvetrain is great for high rpms then Ford runs the long stroke limiting the rpm potential of the engine.

They should have put the 4v hardware on an engine like the 289, instead they put it on a truck engine. It doesnt do anything particularly well. Too small to make much torque and cant rev up high enough to make a lot of hp.

 

well I could care less about the ford vs chevy pissing match but I am willing to put my stock cubed NA 2001 Z28 against any 347 na mustang. Im on the east coast, lets see how it goes, all in good fun of course, unless you beat me..then I will be forced to kill you so no one can know <img border="0" alt="[jester]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_jest.gif" /> Oh full interior cars only, none of this gutted POS crap. Daily driver on pump gas as well. Whos in <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_cheers.gif" /> I am not that fast I just wanna race a mustang with 400 rwhp. LS1onderfull knows my car and will attest it has no blower, no nitrous, stock cubes. Full interior as well. I know of one 347 stroker in Mass but hes already been torn a knew one when I only had a cam and stock heads. He must have been untuned or something I guess, I think it was a Mike DEZ racing car or maybe a CE mustang cant remember. Whos game. Enough with numbers, lets see head on action. <img border="0" alt="[driving]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_driving3.gif" />

<small>[ February 20, 2003, 10:31 AM: Message edited by: 5-liter-eater ]</small>

 

Ford australia have just bolted together a series of NA engines or the local market BOSS 290 NA 290kw (388hp) 520 nM (383)

http://www.fordperformancevehicles.c...?link_id=2.171

its only a new line up so no results from them yet

<small>[ February 20, 2003, 04:55 PM: Message edited by: strife ]</small>

 

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by 5-liter-eater:
<strong> well I could care less about the ford vs chevy pissing match but I am willing to put my stock cubed NA 2001 Z28 against any 347 na mustang. Im on the east coast, lets see how it goes, all in good fun of course, unless you beat me..then I will be forced to kill you so no one can know <img border="0" alt="[jester]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_jest.gif" /> Oh full interior cars only, none of this gutted POS crap. Daily driver on pump gas as well. Whos in <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_cheers.gif" /> I am not that fast I just wanna race a mustang with 400 rwhp. LS1onderfull knows my car and will attest it has no blower, no nitrous, stock cubes. Full interior as well. I know of one 347 stroker in Mass but hes already been torn a knew one when I only had a cam and stock heads. He must have been untuned or something I guess, I think it was a Mike DEZ racing car or maybe a CE mustang cant remember. Whos game. Enough with numbers, lets see head on action. <img border="0" alt="[driving]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_driving3.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I like this idea, any takers? Average mustanmg should be lighter than Mikes car so it should be interesting. I love track racing, but there is nothing like a well executed street race! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="gr_grin.gif" />

 

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by 5-liter-eater:
<strong> well I could care less about the ford vs chevy pissing match but I am willing to put my stock cubed NA 2001 Z28 against any 347 na mustang. Im on the east coast, lets see how it goes, all in good fun of course, unless you beat me..then I will be forced to kill you so no one can know <img border="0" alt="[jester]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_jest.gif" /> Oh full interior cars only, none of this gutted POS crap. Daily driver on pump gas as well. Whos in <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_cheers.gif" /> I am not that fast I just wanna race a mustang with 400 rwhp. LS1onderfull knows my car and will attest it has no blower, no nitrous, stock cubes. Full interior as well. I know of one 347 stroker in Mass but hes already been torn a knew one when I only had a cam and stock heads. He must have been untuned or something I guess, I think it was a Mike DEZ racing car or maybe a CE mustang cant remember. Whos game. Enough with numbers, lets see head on action. <img border="0" alt="[driving]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_driving3.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">If you ever get out do Illinios i'd definitly be up for that challenge.Full interior,pump gas,no blower,all motor 347 <img border="0" alt="[burn out]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_burnout.gif" />

 

Hey, I'm all about good fun racing, I'd do it if your ever in the New Orleans area <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="gr_stretch.gif" /> . I'll probably lose, but like i said, as long as it is in good fun then we can grab a beer after <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="gr_stretch.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_cheers.gif" />

 

well you never know where our paths may cross, you guys got it. Races first, then beer <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_cheers.gif" />
It sucks around here, not alot of die hard mustang guys that would take the time to build one right. Most slap a blower or N02 on it and call it a day. I say build it all out on motor firs them add the power adder <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" />

 

Why build a 370ish rwhp NA motor(Ford) whey for the same money you could have a 500+rwhp power adder motor. Its a no brainer. NA power is what LS1 guys boost about because from the factor they have too much compression to make using boost impractical. As far as dollar per HP goes. Ford guys don't have that problem. And that is the jist of why you don't see allot of 370rwhp + NA mustangs running around.

On a side note in the NMRA there are 2 NA Cobras 300ish Cubic inches running high 9s in the mod motor class.

 

First off, lets compare apples to apples. There is no factory SBF head that will perform like the LS1/6 casting. No, not even the Cleveland 4v. So right off, one answer would be that no direct comparison is possible, or that in fact an equivalent factory Ford small block does not have the potential of an LS1.

Of course, we (I'm a mustang driver) have a huge aftermarket, and collectively many times the R&D time and money of the LS1...just the way it is...the motor has been around a lot longer. To say you can't make a Ford SB perform with good aftermarket parts as well as an LS1 is an exercise in ignorance. Most of you with your heads buried in LS1.tech all day would never know. Just for an example, an out of the box run of the mill Trick Flow twisted wedge head flows in the neighborhood of 240-250 cfm, with comparable low lift numbers to an LS1....not to mention this head will port about as well as an LS1 casting....and there are several SBF heads that perform better. (edelbrock victors, TFS high ports TFS R's, Canfields, and AFR's extensive lineup) Modern Ford HR cams use lobe profiles close to or as aggressive as LS1 grinds. The reasons you don't see a huge number of people making 400+ rwhp in a Ford are:

1. Most aftermarket intakes are the long runner variety (12-17") that are designed to boost torque for the majority of customers...IE those with 302s or 306s. There are not many good affordable EFI intakes suitable for big power on a stroker 331-347....or even windsor motors. Even the Holley, Edelbrock victor, and TFS R are the long runner style.

2. There are almost TOO MANY different parts to choose from for SBFs and mustangs. This makes it REALLY easy to mismatch a combo, trust me. You guys have maybe 15-20 cams that are really popular, and are proven, 1 intake manifold, and 2 basic castings on which to derive power. In summary, the stuff out there for LS1s is mostly REALLY good stuff....whereas alot of the Ford parts sold today are still 15 year old technology that people for some reason still are intent on using. This is why you guys are destroying alot of 347 mustangs out there with old GT40 or edelbrock heads, old performer intakes and "E" cams. Well, no ****, sherlock!

A combination that would rival or beat a cam/intake or H/C/I LS1/LS6 would be:

*A good 347 short block with higher compression pistons ~$1500-$3000

*AFR 185 or 205 out of the box heads ~ $1300-$1500

*spyder EFI or box upper intake ~$600-$1200

*custom cam from FTI, Hitech Mtrsprt, or Buddy Rawls ~$300

*1 3/4" LT headers ~$300
-of course more money on other small assorted parts-

Depending on how you cammed it and the compression, this motor could make 485+ fwhp on pump gas, and get by with just a computer tune and bigger injectors.

Yes, I know we have now spent more on this motor than would need be spent on a HCI Ls1, but then again we are using all aftermarket parts, and we didn't pay 20+ grand for the car to begin with, now did we? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" />

Oh, and for the guy saying Ford motors don't hold together....I've heard of a guy that made 400+ passes with a 250 wet shot on his STOCK 5.0 short block. This is an extreme example, of course, but I'd bet nobody has done this with one of your stock aluminum mills. You guys don't get forged pistons from the factory, either, do ya? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="gr_stretch.gif" />

I love LS1 cars, the motors amaze me every time I see 1/4 mile times or dyno numbers, and my next car will be one, but don't think they are the end all of performance, and be careful who you listen to...alot of ignorance being thrown around in this thread.

<img border="0" alt="[chug]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_chug.gif" />
-Neil

<small>[ February 21, 2003, 05:00 PM: Message edited by: 89foxpilot ]</small>

 

On the corral website, they are posting up 347 dyno and track times.

The best dyno is 413rwhp/397rwtq, but it is a solid roller.

There is another with 366/376 with hydrualic roller, ported heads, etc.

There is another guy with a very built 331 with 13:1 who hit about 520HP on an engine dyno. It used a solid roller too.

The cartek/LG motorsports hydraulic packages are putting out 470rwhp/420+rwtq, equates to 520-530 engine HP, 470-480 TQ.

 

89foxpilot, how many 331-351's have you seen put out 400rwtq? 410rwtq? 420rwtq? 430rwtq?

The guys on this side of the fence are doing it all day long, the high rwtq is a testiment to the efficiency of the combinations.

No one ever said the Ford couldn't do it. Most owners refuse to put the right combo together.

Its easy - skip the AFR185 and go straight to the 205 or TFS-R.

Vic 5.0 intake Ported
11:1 CR
347 cubic inches
Cam in 235@.050", 110-112LSA range
1 3/4" bassani long tubes
3" dual exhaust
75 mm tb
75-80mm maf
computer tuning

It should do it. Still I haven't seen many combo's on that side of the fence with over 400rwtq. The only one that comes to mind is SteveD@HoustonPerformance.

He built a 347 that did 455rwhp/400rwtq many years ago, it used a solid roller though.
The ported canfields do not flow as good, as early as these ported LS1 castings. A TFS-R or AFR205 head should fix that.

 

hp-guru...there is a guy over on corral who goes by clnpwr who has a solid roller 347 that made 474rwhp and runs low 10's on motor.

there are a few guys over on the corral making over 400rwhp including me but alot of them just dont post as much anymore.

 

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">You guys have maybe 15-20 cams that are really popular, and are proven, 1 intake manifold, and 2 basic castings on which to derive power. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I think you better go back and do some home work and find out what we(ls1 guys) really have to work with, i think youll be surprised

 

89 Fox Pilot, i agree with your post and opinions. I never said fords didnt make power, only that 331 to 347 iron headed, emission cammed fords did not make comparable power to modded lS1 at the rear wheels. Like JPR said in his post there is a lot of induction tuning advantage and other LS1 advantages like positive piston deck height, hi swirl ports and chambers,fast burn chamber design and plug placement, proper rod to stroke ratio for overall power and reliability, low tension highly placed ring package,very large cam diameter for ultimate lobe designs and large strong base circle(gun drilled also)Light weight 8mm very hi flowing valves on a 15* angle with very minimal flow gradients in port shape design(less dead space),crank trigger ignition,coil on ignition. You get the picture, not even close to similar looking sbf when you really study the features of each. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" />