Quick question on pushrod size.
04-16-2009, 09:38 AM
#63
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Though I think "how much preload is recommended" is the crux of the debate here, ignoring all the other BS. There's the OEM camp saying .080-.100 with one guy saying his numbers were better with more pre-load, then there's the lighter pre-load camp saying that somewhere in the range of .020-.040 is better.
THEN we can start on how big of diameter and how thick the pushrods should be.. LOL
04-16-2009, 09:56 AM
#64
TECH Senior Member
Assume it's all opinions.... assume I'm not a female.... assume I've never dyno tested these things....
That's going to make a *** out of U and ME.... well mostly you.
One thing I really think is funny about this is how when presented with an arguement based on FACTS not hearsay, people over here dance around the topic when the otherside does something TOTALLY different than their realm of knowledge allows. This is only all taken as BASHING because people being WRONG with unsupported arguements are getting their EGOs hurt.
I love how you flip-flop like your John Kerry or something...
Are you so sure about that?????
Sounds like you need a set of these!
Are you going from your own experience of testing lifter preload or are you not? It looks like your not to me, sounds like your not to me and it's more than apparent that you have never tested any of this statically in terms of measurements or dynamically on a dyno.
I've talked to Fritz, I'm pretty sure you have not and your supporting examples aren't helping your side. Their way is one way to check this, especially if you want to check sweep patterens on a rocker arm. Problem is with a shaft style rocker arm like a LS1 has stock you aren't going to change the sweep pattern with the pushrod length & you only have to measure the PR length with the pushrod on the lifter, not any other pressure. A solid lifter setup to stock pushrod cup height makes this easier but it is not needed, PLUS we are not talking about HOW to do this but what makes the most power and DOESN'T have side effects like those that are mentioned here. UNLESS YOU HAVE TESTED THIS BOTH WAYS YOU DO NOT HAVE THE EXPERIENCE TO TALK ABOUT IT LIKE IT'S THE 2nd COMING OF GOD (or ALLAH for you.)
Problem is guys don't check anything based on the advice they get here, they do internet math to determine pushrod length, and have been ADVISED to do so for YEARS on this web forum, and PRED-Z is the main culprit of that. Hence why his panties are in a bunch and he CAN'T backup his statements, and considers this bashing.... it's more about him getting his ego bruised.
If you had any stud mount rocker setup and did internet math to get pushrod length on a motor with solid lifters this advice would have trashed EVERY set of valve guides in heads this was done on by now.... just because LS motors are idiot proof doesn't mean that you can't build them properly and get more out of them.
Just because you shout the loudest and most, DOES NOT MAKE YOU CORRECT!
That's going to make a *** out of U and ME.... well mostly you.
One thing I really think is funny about this is how when presented with an arguement based on FACTS not hearsay, people over here dance around the topic when the otherside does something TOTALLY different than their realm of knowledge allows. This is only all taken as BASHING because people being WRONG with unsupported arguements are getting their EGOs hurt.
I love how you flip-flop like your John Kerry or something...
Are you so sure about that?????
Sounds like you need a set of these!
Are you going from your own experience of testing lifter preload or are you not? It looks like your not to me, sounds like your not to me and it's more than apparent that you have never tested any of this statically in terms of measurements or dynamically on a dyno.
I've talked to Fritz, I'm pretty sure you have not and your supporting examples aren't helping your side. Their way is one way to check this, especially if you want to check sweep patterens on a rocker arm. Problem is with a shaft style rocker arm like a LS1 has stock you aren't going to change the sweep pattern with the pushrod length & you only have to measure the PR length with the pushrod on the lifter, not any other pressure. A solid lifter setup to stock pushrod cup height makes this easier but it is not needed, PLUS we are not talking about HOW to do this but what makes the most power and DOESN'T have side effects like those that are mentioned here. UNLESS YOU HAVE TESTED THIS BOTH WAYS YOU DO NOT HAVE THE EXPERIENCE TO TALK ABOUT IT LIKE IT'S THE 2nd COMING OF GOD (or ALLAH for you.)
Problem is guys don't check anything based on the advice they get here, they do internet math to determine pushrod length, and have been ADVISED to do so for YEARS on this web forum, and PRED-Z is the main culprit of that. Hence why his panties are in a bunch and he CAN'T backup his statements, and considers this bashing.... it's more about him getting his ego bruised.
If you had any stud mount rocker setup and did internet math to get pushrod length on a motor with solid lifters this advice would have trashed EVERY set of valve guides in heads this was done on by now.... just because LS motors are idiot proof doesn't mean that you can't build them properly and get more out of them.
Just because you shout the loudest and most, DOES NOT MAKE YOU CORRECT!
04-17-2009, 07:24 AM
#66
well then is it at least agreed upon by all sides that the preload should be .08 on stock lifters? Daily driver?
lets say we are talking about a stock bottom end with ls1 or ls7 lifters. (popular budget lifters)
lets say we are talking about a stock bottom end with ls1 or ls7 lifters. (popular budget lifters)
04-17-2009, 07:40 AM
#67
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And keep in mind, the LS7's have a different cup height (it's lower, IIRC)(EDIT: higher).. so anyone who just drops in a set and re-uses their old pushrods without measuring has just changed (edit:increased) their preload.
Last edited by Eskimo; 04-17-2009 at 10:11 AM.
04-17-2009, 09:55 AM
#68
TECH Senior Member
Nope. I wouldn't say it's agreed on.
And keep in mind, the LS7's have a different cup height (it's lower, IIRC).. so anyone who just drops in a set and re-uses their old pushrods without measuring HAS just changed (reduced, if I'm remembering correctly about the cup being lower) their preload.
And keep in mind, the LS7's have a different cup height (it's lower, IIRC).. so anyone who just drops in a set and re-uses their old pushrods without measuring HAS just changed (reduced, if I'm remembering correctly about the cup being lower) their preload.
Last edited by PREDATOR-Z; 04-17-2009 at 10:01 AM.
04-17-2009, 10:05 AM
#69
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Thanks - I should have/could have looked it up...
So I take it you're not going to answer my other question about what diameter and wall thickness PR's you've been recommending, and why that over something else? (Length and pre-load aside)
So I take it you're not going to answer my other question about what diameter and wall thickness PR's you've been recommending, and why that over something else? (Length and pre-load aside)
04-17-2009, 11:39 AM
#72
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I'm not looking so much for a certain recommendation, but more the reasons why...
04-17-2009, 12:15 PM
#73
Here is something I was thinking about, and a point to consider.
Lets say that according to Pred-Z that when I measured my zero preload value, the lifter cup wasn't fully up, since the bleed down effect he was mentioning. So for arguments sake, let's just throw out a number like 0.040" from the top. So now when I put the pushrod checker in there to zero preload, and add my 0.030", I'm actually at 0.070" preload. But if I followed blindly Pred-Z's reccomendation of 0.080-0.100" preload, I'd be at 0.120"-0.140" which is way to much preload for a stock ls1 lifter and I'd be bottoming out the lifter.
Hmmm, maybe that's why everyone who puts in 7.400" pushrods, or longer because they have an aftermarket cam with a smaller base circle, has a noisy valvetrain and complains of it sounding like a sowing machine.... but I digress.
Lets say that according to Pred-Z that when I measured my zero preload value, the lifter cup wasn't fully up, since the bleed down effect he was mentioning. So for arguments sake, let's just throw out a number like 0.040" from the top. So now when I put the pushrod checker in there to zero preload, and add my 0.030", I'm actually at 0.070" preload. But if I followed blindly Pred-Z's reccomendation of 0.080-0.100" preload, I'd be at 0.120"-0.140" which is way to much preload for a stock ls1 lifter and I'd be bottoming out the lifter.
Hmmm, maybe that's why everyone who puts in 7.400" pushrods, or longer because they have an aftermarket cam with a smaller base circle, has a noisy valvetrain and complains of it sounding like a sowing machine.... but I digress.
04-17-2009, 12:18 PM
#74
Ok,
So, I'm the moron here?
Time for some proof then from reputed LSX builders (one of the best I might add)
https://ls1tech.com/forums/generatio...r-preload.html
So please, this is not my post, that is KATECH
Bash them if you can. This is all I'm going to say about this anymore.
I have enjoyed all of this, thank you for the entertainment.
__________________
So, I'm the moron here?
Time for some proof then from reputed LSX builders (one of the best I might add)
https://ls1tech.com/forums/generatio...r-preload.html
So please, this is not my post, that is KATECH
Bash them if you can. This is all I'm going to say about this anymore.
I have enjoyed all of this, thank you for the entertainment.
__________________
Quoted for generalitiness....yes i know its not a word, but thats the least of the probs here in this thread.
Everyone also knows there are no more custom cams available, predatorZ hath spec'd them all.
You double talk and backpedal more than the current POTUS
04-17-2009, 12:31 PM
#75
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If you measure zero lash without actually compressing the lifter cup, I really don't see how you can screw it up. it's not like the lifter cup moves as easily as the lifter itself does in the bore...
04-17-2009, 12:42 PM
#76
TECH Senior Member
I'm sorry, but I fail to understand what you are trying to say.
04-17-2009, 01:59 PM
#78
once again. completely irrelevant to the topic at hand. Pushrod lengths and how to determine.
04-17-2009, 02:07 PM
#79
what othere ways do you recomend to measure preload other than the way that PRED has discussed.
And why would someone want .03 vs .08?
Quiter? more reliable? what about a simple cam only or H/C daily driver?
These are honest questions. I have no intention of sounding like a smart ***.
04-17-2009, 02:23 PM
#80
TECH Senior Member
Let's say... something like 230/236 .612/.602 111+2 LSA. stock sized valves in a 243 head... Your choice, GM or Ferrera valves, with the appropriate spring package. (You seem to favor the PRC dual springs, so we'll go with those for this example.)
I'm not looking so much for a certain recommendation, but more the reasons why...
I'm not looking so much for a certain recommendation, but more the reasons why...
Why? Because they are quality chromemoly, hardened and with 3 attributes that are special to Comp:
1- They are light (yet tough)
2- The are designed to reduce unwanted cam harmonic frequencies.
3- They are recommended by Comp Cam and designed with those lobes in mind.
See, it is best to keep the effective moving valvetrain mass, the lightest possible for high rpm power, reliability and stability.
If it were me in a Racing application:
LS6 243 heads with light valves
Pac beehive .620 lift springs at correct height
Titanium retainers
Hi tech Comp p-rods
For the street and everyone's phobia (or laziness in checking springs) I recommend Dual Patriot spring "Gold".
Last edited by PREDATOR-Z; 04-17-2009 at 02:47 PM.