ORLLS1

My problem is OBVIOUSLY the guy feels cheated. Anyone can tell you that you can keep running a car on the dyno and it will go between 3 to 8rwhp and the same tq out of 10 runs.. How can you honestly say that the tuning did ANYTHING! Tally said himself that his baseline b4 the tuning was pretty much dead on. I think when you realized that nothing was really going to be gained. You should have not charged him for the tune and just charged him for the dyno time. Did you advise the customer that there was not much to be gained post the baseline run? Did Tally force you to tune the car anyway? Help me understand why you charged him for nothing..

VINCE

iTrader: (1)

Before I leave work I would like to say that Norris Motorsports did a great job on my engine.. I happen to be friends with Richie and Tim and they are a great bunch of guys and only have the customer in mind.. If I had the extra money I would personally let them tune my car..

Ron@Vengeance

iTrader: (51)

The customer saw the AF was dead on, if he wanted to stop the tuning he could have. He also stated he got all codes cleared, played with timing and AF and followed through on everything to make sure it was safe. I personally will be glad to pay someone the money for dyno time since I myself would not feel comfortable using LS1Edit. You pay for knowledge. I dont think its the tuners fault the car was as close as it was.
Just my .02

10secondZ

iTrader: (24)

Tim & Richie know their stuff pretty well...i'm going in as soon as I can to get mine tuned because my car is running like shiot! but I trust them to tune my car without a doubt...and mike norris is a good guy too he wouldn't ever dick anyone over....hell i still owe him 10 bucks from like over 2 years ago and he hasnt said anything hehe..(don't worry i'll pay you back mike! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="gr_grin.gif" /> )Bottom line is...there is absolutely nothing wrong with C&S performance and the people who own/operate it!Someone said something about mail order tuning..hell I picked up 1 rwhp and 3 lb. ft from an edd wright program...but as the original post said "it idle's better,pulls harder through the rpm,and raised the rev limiter...they did what they could for power..but tuning isn't always about power..it has benefits of drivability..thats also what he paid for..those number's are pretty respectable for a cam only car anyways...just my .02!! later,

carter

<small>[ February 19, 2003, 12:02 AM: Message edited by: 10secondZ ]</small>

Richie Carbone

iTrader: (3)

racer88, the point I'm trying to get across is that we did everything we could to get more power out of the car, there is definitely something wrong with the car, the guy who drove the car up didn't want to go any further to try and find the problem ie; a leak down or compression test.

The guy that drove the car up told us the car had been ragged on for a long time.

If you want to start with the insults take it to e-mail.


ORLLS1, you need to re-read Tally's post, he seemed satisfied with the tune and had no problems with the end result. The car still has a stock pulley, and stock t-stat. With an underdrive pulley, 160 t-stat and longtube headers the car would be closer to 380RWHP.

BTW the car was dynoed through full exhaust

Tim Sloper

ORLLS1,

If you were to itemize everything we did...

- hourly dyno rate with wideband is $125/hr.
- the car was on the dyno for 2 hours
- our basic tuning fee is $75... this includes anything other than timing/fuel changes.
- we corrected the MAF tables for the ported MAF which does NOT fall under the basic fee. The LTrims were over 5% positive on both banks which we prefer to be 0 or negative to ensure the LTrims do not influence PE A/F ratios. From there we corrected the PE table and timing table.
- we also spent time adjusting the TB (stock blade... no drilling) to get the IAC counts where they needed to be to maintain a quality idle with and without the A/C on.
- I test drove the car to verify the idle was acceptable. While driving I noticed a severe rattle... we could have sent him on his way but I put the car on the lift and took the time to find out where it was comming from.

We charged Ryan $495 which is our full dyno tune fee. I wish the car would have made more power but we have NEVER stated we guarantee an increase in power. We did take the time to try and maximize everything we could. We didn't go through the effort to rip him off. If you think we are out to rip people off why don't you go take a look at Corvetteforum.com and read the post from a C5 owner that came in right after Ryan. We had dyno tuned his car about 2-3 weeks ago for N/A use. At the Breathless shootout he had been having major problems with his car missing while running nitrous. We spent 2 1/2 hours on his car Sat. afternoon getting everything working correctly on the nitrous side and tweaked the tuning for his nitrous usage. Not only did we run out to get his bottle filled for him we pulled all the plugs and regapped them more appropriately for the nitrous to keep the car from breaking up on the larger shot. Want to know what we charged him? Absolutely nothing!

We have and will continue to take care of our customers. We do alot of things beyond what we are not obligated to do for our customers. You can keep trying to stir this pot but this will be my last response in this thread as I feel no obligation to justify anything to someone that can't atleast identify themselves. We are always open to talking with our customers if they aren't satisfied.

Tim

<small>[ February 19, 2003, 12:40 AM: Message edited by: Tim Sloper ]</small>

BLUEBALLS ZZ

iTrader: (2)

ok, good , glad we got this out.

(1)the reason it pulled those number in the first place is that i had to flip the MAF back around the right way in effect it made it run really lean. my o's being at .840's <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="gr_eek2.gif" />

(2)paid 250 dollars for 2 motor pulls and one P.E table adjustment pull while telling Brian you were going to adjust timing and the idle (we call this a lie when you don't do what you say you were going to do)
(3) the money issue was suppose to be dealt with before they went up there. made it known we had multiple cars and we were going to get a great deal on if. hell, i posted how excited i was in sffba, but then as i got the phone calls it got depressing.
(4) my car ran so bad after that i had to dump the tune and go back to my set up i had before. dam thing had a problem breaking the tires in first gear!! checked the 0'2 and wow i was running .860 o'2. before your dyno i was at 390hp with the maf facing the wrong way in order to richen it up. o's on that run werer rich and you could see it .930. at your dyno running lean after your small fuel adjustment i ran 375hp. <img border="0" alt="[bang head]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_banghead.gif" />
(5) my motor is so tired that recently i pulled the heads thinking i had a blown head gasket (was losing water) found out it was the heater core. and my cylinder walls still had the cross hatches it. <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_cheers.gif" />
(6)took you almost 6 hours to tune a car because you were consistently BSing around (horse play) when in fact i hear you could of done what you did in 2 hours.
i could not make it up there due to work . i had trucks on a holiday schedule. they went up there with the best intention and felt ripped off. plain and simple. i thought about talking to Norris and see what he could do. but hell, why would i take my car back to someone who i don't trust <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> IMO your excuse "cop out" of the whole thing was the money issue and looking and seeing i have 70,000 miles and assuming it is easier to say my motor is tired. most of the SFFBA guys seen my car. far from being tired, now it has been a running joke down here.
am i still a little <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="gr_images/icons/mad.gif" /> about what happen?? oh ya <img border="0" alt="[shoot]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_guns.gif" />

<small>[ February 19, 2003, 02:56 AM: Message edited by: BLUEBALLS ZZ ]</small>

racer88

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Richie Carbone:
[QB] [QUOTE]racer88, the point I'm trying to get across is that we did everything we could to get more power out of the car, there is definitely something wrong with the car</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">You can't tell me this when I see this car everyday...and the person who owns it knows probably more than you guys do. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The guy that drove the car up told us the car had been ragged on for a long time.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"><img src="http://www.rsad.edu/~bhack/clairesig.jpg" alt=" - " />

Well I guess my car is ragged on too that's just one pic at BMP 3 weeks ago, wow it is ragged on... 24 passes in one day <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="gr_sad.gif" /> 36K miles on this engine and it's been on the track for 30K of the 36....too bad my warranty is over in 120 miles.....BUT WOW......it runs 12.6 w/ NO CAM Isn't that funny? I think there was a stock heads cam only car at VV that only ran what?! 12.5? Wow......can't wait til I get my cam and run 12.2's <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="gr_grin.gif" />


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">If you want to start with the insults take it to e-mail.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Funny I wasn't the one that insulted anything, so don't expect an email Richie I have nothing more to say. One thing for sure you guy's definately won't get my car for tuning. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="gr_stretch.gif" />

Sorry Tally Trans Am...for messin your thread up..... <img border="0" alt="[bomb]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_bomb.gif" />

<small>[ February 19, 2003, 06:09 AM: Message edited by: racer88 ]</small>

Mike Norris

iTrader: (10)

Hey Ryan,

Sorry everyone bombed in on your thread here. I have seen several cars with close to the same combo and be anywhere from the 360-375 with some odd cars doing close to 390. The MAC's, as much as some love them, can be great or mediocre at best. Some gain a lot swapping to long tubes and some do not. There will be several opinions on this for sure as it is a public forum. Some just have less finesse with the way they get things across (Richie, Blueballszz). Ryan's engine could have a taller deck causing slightly less compression or core shift in a head causing some minor flow problems. For every fast factory freak car there is a bunch of slower cars that tuning cannot just magically fix. No excuses, just observations. We get what we can and go from there. I have heard of some places tuning at 14.0-1 A/F for best HP but personally would not run her there.

As far as the story BLUEBALLSZZ presents, we have been there before on another board and this is the thread. I was not at the shop for the whole time and heard of a lot of small things later on and offered a resolution. No hard feelings.

http://www.badrap.net/cgi-bin/ultima...c;f=3;t=000873

I have not heard from him and that is his perogative to do as he sees fit. I did not say that the engine was tired, but that a good mechanical check to verify evrything is okay to start. The fact that we only saw 370-375RWHP here on the baselines is something that I cannot control. You can read the rest in the thread above to get the info and the offer still stands to go over everything and we go on from there.

Later,

Mike

BLUEBALLS ZZ

iTrader: (2)

i can do that http://www.sffba.net/forum/showthrea...ghlight=norris

i am just explaining what happen on my part. two sides to every story. i have nothing to lose nor to prove. but catch me if you can, cause my butt will be at the track <img border="0" alt="[driving]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_driving3.gif" />

ORLLS1

Ok, so the car did not have Longtubes. Many on this very board run Mac's and dyno more than Tally. Ok, no pulley.. I have no pulley. Now I read you told a customer they have a tired engine.. LOL!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="gr_grin.gif" /> Maybe Tally's engine is tired too.. So far all I have heard is excuses when the customer is not happy.. When are you going to take some blame in this? Could it be Norris Dyno dyno's low? I have heard many people complain that they dyno somewhere else and then go to Norris Motorsports and lose like 20rwhp.. I know that the #'s are going to be different from dyno to dyno.., but not by that much.. I suggest you guys get your act together..

VINCE

iTrader: (1)

Tally could you come in and close this post? This is getting silly..

gator's 99TA

iTrader: (2)

SFFBA/BADRAP up in this hizzouse! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="gr_stretch.gif" />

congrats on the dyno numbers. now lets get er dun at the track!

racer88

ORRLS1, I will let you know what MAC's gave my car as soon as I dyno....probably April.....all I know is it runs mid 12's w/ NO cam.

Gator, SFFBA fo' shizzo! <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_cheers.gif" />

<small>[ February 19, 2003, 03:14 PM: Message edited by: racer88 ]</small>

Mike Norris

iTrader: (10)

Hey All,

Its not that I do not like MAC's as they are not bad for the money. I have seen variances on MAC equipped cars just like what folks have mentioned here. Some think they are great numbers and others think the opposite. To be honest racer88, if you look at Thunders website, coated off road MAC's with y-pipe are $760 and coated Hooker LT's w/ OR pipe is $800. Makes Hookers the easy choice to me personally but to each their own. The best reason I would pick MAC's is for ground clearance if the car is lowered more than an inch.

ORLLS1,

As mentioned above and in other posts, I said I would check things over mechanically first to verify engine condition. I personally did not say the engine was tired, just the right place to start looking if power is down and tuning parameters look good. I did not see a previous dyno sheet from BLUEBALLSZZ car and have nothing to go by the 390RWHP he said she put down previously. I have had several cars from MTI in Houston come here and dyno within 5RWHP and Vince here has been close as well as many other BADRAP regulars when they would dyno in Tampa compared to here. The only time I have seen a major difference is checking from a Mustang to Dynojet dyno. On my dyno, all info is gathered electronically via the dyno sensors and weather station, no human input. One other thing ORLLS1, if you are local to Orlando and honestly have a 395RWHP MAC equipped, cam only, stock head F-body, bring her to my shop with a previous dyno sheet and I will do a free dyno test, two back to back A/F runs to verify.

My .02 on this and the offer still stands to BLUEBALLSZZ. <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_cheers.gif" />

Mike

racer88

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Mike Norris:
[QB][QUOTE]Hey All,
To be honest racer88, if you look at Thunders website, coated off road MAC's with y-pipe are $760 and coated Hooker LT's w/ OR pipe is $800. Makes Hookers the easy choice to me personally but to each their own. The best reason I would pick MAC's is for ground clearance if the car is lowered more than an inch.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">*BINGO* You get a cookie, I am lowered 1 1/4 and the MAC's were my choice seeing all the gains the H/C cars have gotten.... and BTW, Thunder Racing is the bomb no wonder I got my coated MAC's from them....how'd ya know? But I got $40 off my order on a 'Freaky Friday' hehe <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="gr_stretch.gif" />

<small>[ February 19, 2003, 03:24 PM: Message edited by: racer88 ]</small>

gojo

iTrader: (12)

Don't be so worried about dyno #'s, you will never race one! They're so many fantacy dyno numbers out there its a joke. It sounds like the car runs good. be happy. Use the same dyno if you make changes, this way you already have a baseline. There's so many ways to alter dyno numbers. If you use a good shop that will give you the real numbers you will know what you really gain. Use the same dyno everytime. Good luck.

. AMEN

Tally TransAm

iTrader: (17)

i shut down my pc for like two days and my thread turns into this, this is bullsh!t

i am in NO way disappointed with my trip to Orlando and Norris Motorsports. I enjoyed every part of it.

To Tim, Richie, and Mike,
I am very impressed with your shop, your professionalism, your knowledge, customer service, everything. Tim sat there and let me look over his shoulder and ask questions about EVERYTHING he was doing (which i know was annoying). Some day i want to be able to do this myself and with Tims help that day i feel i am that much closer.
They were very careful in checking out my car prior to dynoing it, gaving me 1.5 quarts of M1 for free (thanks guys), checking all my tire pressures, making sure everything was secure. I was very impressed with this. The entire tuning process was explained to me as it happened, and Tim and Richies knowledge seemed very extensive. They also fixed a very annoying heat shield at no charge.

As for my car:
Its never been big on a dyno, hell i put down 322 with intake mods, exhuast, and headers. But after the tuning it runs noticably better. There is ZERO surging at idle (cold or warm restarts). Pulls like a beast all the way to 6600 rpms, and it very smooth throughout the powerband

I am 110% satisfied with my trip to Norris Motorsports and i have and will continue to recommend them to anyone who is looking for tuning on any other work for that matter.

After the baseline run, i knew we werent gonna get much out of the tune, i didnt care, all of the other things that were taken care of more than made up for it.

I also feel the price was very fair compared to other prices for similar services. I also in no way want any sort of refund. I was very happy to hand my money to Tim Mike and Richie after the tuning session

C&S and Norris is where i will continue to take my car for my tuning needs as my mods increase

and once again Tim Richie Mike and the other guy there (sorry bro i forgot your name), thanks

ryan

<small>[ February 19, 2003, 03:48 PM: Message edited by: Tally TransAm ]</small>

ORLLS1

The funny thing is I was trying to make it to your dyno day in January, but had a family problem. I was at OSW when Richie ran mid 11's at like 122mph I think last year.. I even came over and said good run afterwards.. I was at the Vette/Viper/F-body Shootout watching everyone run.. I didn't have the spare change to run my car. Not having a job right now hurts, but it's ok.. I live in Venice, Florida.. I have spoken to Mike Norris on the phone on two occassions last year asking for a price about a bigger motor. Of course this was when I had a job, but your prices were still out of my range.. As for the free dyno. I will take you up on your offer as soon as I can get back up to Orlando..

VINCE

iTrader: (1)

Who is this guy? Nothing wrong with Norris Dyno.. Every now and then there is a freak car. My car would have been considered a freak a long time ago.. Richie and Tim installed the T1 and Mac headers for me and it initially dyno'd 372rwhp. We were all shocked.. I sent my pcm to Ed Wright and put her on the dyno again and pulled 390rwhp.. My first dyno pulls were minus pulley, ported tb, etc.. Richie installed the pulley and I gained 9lbs of tq, but no horsepower.. Go figure.. Not everyone can dyno high. Which I found out later.. Now stop criticizing and move on..