Steve - Race Eng

iTrader: (1)

Regarding your installation question for the Darton MID kit. I am a co-inventor of the sleeve and do the installs for Darton and all R&D on block machining. The LS1 - LS6 kit must be installed on a CNC mill. Some of the Honda kits can be installed on a mill with digital readout but not the LS1 -LS6 kit. The reason is the number one cylinder seat is not round - it incorporates a flat to prevent breaking through the block into the timing chain area. Thus the seat must be milled to follow a tool path.

In any event, a CNC mill will do a much more accurate job of machining any of the MID blocks to spec than one can do with a manual machine. It is nearly impossible to hold a tolerance of +- 1/2 thousandth using a manual mill. If the holes are not machined correctly the sleeves will not be round after installation.

I have a picture of a LS1 block set up on my mill on my web page:www.raceenginedevelopment.com

Regarding the delivery time. If you have a set of sleeves I can machine your block and install the sleeves in a week or less. Best results are with seasoned LS1 blocks but new LS6 blocks are acceptable if they are stress relieved. I send blocks out for Metalax to accomplish the stress relief after roughing out the block. The block is then finish machined.

A block with MID sleeves and steel caps - studs, is more than equivalent in strength to the C5R block. Do not confuse the MID kit with a thin wall dry sleeve. The MID sleeves are almost a quarter inch thick at 4.125" bore. The dry sleeves are very thin (1/16" in some) and have little parent block material to hold them in place at 4.125" bore.

The biggest problem at the moment is keeping up with demand. This is why there is a wait, not because there is a problem with the product or installation. I am currently working with Darton to increase supply.

I mentioned once before on this site that there was never a problem with o'rings. We increased the number of o'rings for insurance as we decreased the diameter of the ring. The thinner rings allow larger bore size, up to 4.160" with the LS1.

Much engineering has gone into the design of the sleeve and installation. There are several engines, one long term that I am aware of, running with no problems. We require that Evan's coolant be used along with Evan's coolant pump (larger bearings, much better scroll). The stock GM pump volume is inadequate especially on the right bank over 5,000 rpm. Cometic is currently working on a complete line of gaskets made specifically to work with the MID blocks. I now deck all blocks square, smooth and flat after sleeve installation to permit the use of MLS Cometic gaskets. Fel Pro 1041 gaskets will work just fine up to 10 lbs. of boost.

Darton will have a LS1 MID display block in their booth at the PRI show for those of you planning on attending. I plan on working the booth along with the guys from Darton.

Hope this answers most of the questions.

Steve Demirjian
Race Engine Development

Scalpel

iTrader: (4)

Why is a different coolant needed over say Dex-Cool?

XLR8NSS

iTrader: (4)

Steve - Great info. What is the Evans pump you talk about? Does Evans make an upgraded water pump for the LS1-6 series of motors?

Thanks

Linear Velocity

iTrader: (1)

4.125 bore, dry sleeve motor. 3k miles on the motor, no problems here.

Bear

iTrader: (1)

Steve are U saying that U HAVE TO run better coling system, or just recomend it. I went to Evans website and saw the price. I dont mind spending $25 a gallon on coolant since I only have to fill it up every once in a while. What about running the Meziere or JPR's reverse cooled pump? Can U enlighten us a little more about the requirements of the cooling system? Thanks and again, GREAT Info.

Scott Turvey

Yes, Evans does make a pump for the LS1-6 series, I carry them. I also know Steve, and he is being straight-up about the blocks. I was in the process of doing several 427's when we discovered an issue with some of the sleeves being out-of-round. I called Dave Clinton, the head of Darton, and we had a meeting immediately with Dave, Steve, Gary (one of the other designers), and they addressed the issue immediately. I guess you could blame me for some of the backlog in getting blocks because they stopped production that day and starting working on the process to prevent this happening. Oddly, it wasn't all the blocks, just some. The ones we were seeing problems with were new, so Steve suggested having them stress-relieved. This seems to have knocked that problem in the head, as they are all coming out perfectly now.



What was most impressive is that they actually had several thoughts on how to tackle the problem and went after more than one of them immediately. They had it nailed in a week. It wouldn't have taken that long except I forgot to take them the main caps for a day or so. They never tried to duck the problem and focused on fixing it.



If this info makes the guys who already got Darton blocks to be concerned, you needn't be for two reasons. One, I am located just a few miles from the production facility and go from dropping the blocks off to actually building them very quick, so the issue was seen almost immediately. Second, the out-of-round problem is something that would be seen/caught by anyone as soon as they started prepping the block. You can't finish bore or hone it without measuring, and this would turn it up before you made the first pass.



A nice aside from this issue is that all the blocks are now delivered with a sheet detailing the measurements for that specific block. This includes each cylinders measurement, and how much the deck was cut, if any.



BTW, if anyone is in need of a Darton-sleeved block, let me know as I have always maintained a steady supply of blocks into Darton so I would always have one or two coming out ASAP. I'm not getting "cuts" into the waiting list; I have just been buying from them for quite a while and drop off a block almost weekly.



As far as the “yeah but who actually has any of these running” question, I have three that are in and running in different vehicles. Some I did, others we supplied to customers for installation, but they are all running with no issues. I know because I called the customer shops weekly when we became aware of the above issue. I still check-in with them because I don’t want the “bad press”, that’s just good business.



If anyone has any questions, worries, or concerns, I would be happy to talk to you via this forum, email, or by phone.

FastBlackTA

iTrader: (7)

I have a block with the revised sleeves that Steve is talking about along with the evans water pump. I will post results when I finish assembling the motor during winter break. Too much work and too far away from home to finish anything up now....

Steve - Race Eng

iTrader: (1)

When you machine the block for the MID sleeves you are in essence converting the block into a wet sleeve design just like a diesel. The ductile iron sleeves need cavitation protection which on a diesel is provided by mixing special additives into the coolant - something I decided was too complex early in the development stage of the sleeve. Cavitation can in time eat a hole right through the sleeve. This is more of a problem on a radical engine that runs into detonation.

The Evan's coolant is not water based and will not cavitate. You do not need a high pressure radiator cap. Evan's runs with 0 - 7 lb. cap which obviously reduces the chance of a blown hose and possible scalding - something I would worry about on a street car with 28 - 32 lb cap to prevent boiling of water based coolant on a high output motor. It will also keep your engine intact should temps get really high - approaching 300 deg.

One of my good friends and clients has run Evan's coolant for years in his off road racer. With high desert temps it was not uncommon for coolant temps to run 280 degrees for extended periods. No damage at all to the engine thanks to Evan's coolant. He swears by it and I've seen the benefits first hand.

Evans also has an outlet side thermostat that increases coolant flow significantly over the inlet side stat. We should have some flow numbers in the next month or so.

The Evan's coolant is expensive but it is a one time deal. The coolant does not need replacing and does not evaporate away like water. It is also enviro friendly compared with ethylene glycol.

Evans is currently working on new pump castings for the LS1 engines. These should be available soon but the modified stock pumps with larger bearings and improved scroll work great.

I have spoken with Joe Prince on his new electric cooling pump. I do not have one to send out for testing nor have we tested the Meziere street pump. Caldwell Develpments is currently doing pump and coolant flow testing which I am coordinating for Darton. Caldwell did much of the coolant flow work for Mopar on their racing engines. Perhaps I can get Joe and Meziere to send me one each of their pumps for testing. I'll look into it.

66ImpalaLT1

Simply put, GM places the sleeves in the mold for the block, then pours in the aluminum. The sleeves are installed when the block is cast. That is why there are no problems with GM blocks.

Bear

iTrader: (1)

WOW this really turned into a very informative thread. There is some info here and I feel way better about my new block. I guess mine showed up to JPR around June or July. Should mine be ok with the outta round thingy? My concern is cooling and gaskets. I wanna be sure that I have all the right parts the first time. If there is a problem I dont want to be told that it was MY fault for running a stock water pimp and dexcool. This seems like news to me and JPR. He never said anything to me about coolant. I will look into it.

InvisibleSun

Steve and/or Scott - How many blocks out there have the grooved design on the outside of the sleeves? Are any of these up and running? Just curious... Thanks!

Scalpel

iTrader: (4)

So you could machine a previously dry-sleeved block and install the Darton MID setup then, eh?

That 3/4" thickness at 4.125" bore is fuggin' killer. That'd make for a hella-healthy setup.

XLR8NSS

iTrader: (4)

Levi - He said quarter inch not three quarter inch. 1/4"

Still alot of strength there.

Scalpel

iTrader: (4)

LOL, woops, I got excited and missed that point there

Scott Turvey

All three I mentioned are the grooved design. This is the only type I have used. I will have three more done in the next couple of weeks. Of the three I have done, two are running Meziere's street pump. The other is a SCORE buggy and it's running a stock pump.

Steve, I have eight or nine Meziere pumps at my shop. I can drop one off at your place or Dartons if you want.

gstama

I am a little scared of the sleeved block and it does help a little that LPE spent a year on testing.
The sleeved block cost 3,000 and the C5R block 6,100, do i want to spend 3,500 + or more on the C5R so i reduce my chances of problems.
If i get LPE to build my engine i will go with the sleeved block (year of testing) and if i go somewhere else it will be the C5R block and that's at a reasonable price,
not what most shops say, add in 6,000 to price quote, that won't happen.

JS

iTrader: (4)

This is why u MUST use a shop who is up on these new process'es.Guessing is not a good way to build a motor.

FWIW
I ran Evens coolant in 97 in my N20 injected Hawk and had good and bad results with it.They have their newer fluid thats thinner and doesnt require the constant bleeding of all the air from the system and it seems to be alot better at taking the heat away from the comb. chamber causing less chance of detonation.

Cartek for instance is using the Evans in there strokers and so are a few other shops that build strokers.

WESTIN MACHINE IN PISCATAWAY,NJ. Does excellent Stroker blocks for the LS1 and are vert envolved with the MID Sleeving procees from Darton.The can give u loads of info regarding coolant to use,head gaskets,parts etc.

Like I said,U better have a buider that knows what he's doing instead of alot of promises or you might have alot of paper weights in the comming months.

Steve - Race Eng

iTrader: (1)

Scott from Gen III has at least three running with the new design. I have done about a dozen LS1 blocks and about the same number of Honda blocks with the increased surface area sleeve. Lingenfelter has some running as do some shops on the East Coast, Cartek being one.

Regarding another question. I will not resleeve a block that has dry after market sleeves installed. I did one for a tuner shop and told him no more. The dry wall sleeves are not installed precisely either on crankshaft center line or center to center. This makes it very difficult to locate the new sleeves exactly where they need to go since there is only a slight difference in diameter at the very bottom MID o'ring register area. Besides this, the dry sleeve unit I did had the decks 89 degrees apart instead of 90. This required machining the decks a considerable amount (.030") to correct. Since one can purchase a blem LS6 block for $600 or less, it's hardly worth the effort trying to resurrect a dry sleeved block. I would charge double the standard rate to do another one of these dry sleeved units and you would end up with a piece inferior to one done on a stock block.

Steve - Race Eng

iTrader: (1)

Scott,

Thanks, drop off the Meziere street pump at Darton and I will run it over to Caldwell. Probably end up taking one of your newly sleeved blocks there also to finish testing if you don't mind.

Steve

Scott Turvey

Will do, I'll drop it off tomorrow.