TSP 228R Cam 112 LSA vs. 114 LSA
07-22-2009, 11:05 AM
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I guess I just don't understand why you would get a small LSA on an engine that naturally likes to flow above 3k. As FCCS just said it starts pulling at 3000 and then hard at 3500 and runs out at 6700 when the 114 would go to at least 7000 if not higher. This contradicts all you guys are trying to say that it increases the power in the lower rpms. Yes that is the rule of thumb but responds way differently to every engine. In this case the 114 will gain more up top than it will lose down low. Just because you are changing the LSA does'nt mean your car is going to fall on its face at lower rpms no. Means you sacrafice a few ft-lbs down low to raise the engines peak efficiency within its best flowing powerband. Since effeciency at a point below peak torque = fuel economy.
I almost garauntee the 114 for better fuel economy and performance out of an ls1. I wouldn't expect the higher lsa to perform that much better though in a GENI or II because they tend to flow more on the lower side. You really match your cam and components to flow characteristics. I guess thats why some peoples cars tend to just stomp all over others with similiar components. ITs all about matching components on an engine to achieve power.
I had maybe 700 in my 02 ls1 and was putting down just over 400 hp. You have to know your engine in order to get it to perform they way you want. You can't just throw broad ideas that apply to "every" engine and assume it to be true and the best choice for yours.
I almost garauntee the 114 for better fuel economy and performance out of an ls1. I wouldn't expect the higher lsa to perform that much better though in a GENI or II because they tend to flow more on the lower side. You really match your cam and components to flow characteristics. I guess thats why some peoples cars tend to just stomp all over others with similiar components. ITs all about matching components on an engine to achieve power.
I had maybe 700 in my 02 ls1 and was putting down just over 400 hp. You have to know your engine in order to get it to perform they way you want. You can't just throw broad ideas that apply to "every" engine and assume it to be true and the best choice for yours.
You are assuming everybody WANTS to spin their engine that high....some people don't have an upgraded top end that can handle large amounts of abuse in the RPM range you are describing (and honestly, it's tough to find people other than the more aggressive cams spinning into the 7k+ range.)
07-22-2009, 01:04 PM
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Not true at all. All lobe separation angle does is tilt the curve about an rpm. Which can be seen by the dyno results. It will not change the area under the curve much if at all. Therefore the 114 would like to hold out at a higher rpm longer and probably win by a foot if everything was the exact same. Lower gears and sustained torque at higher rpms = faster acceleration.
The 114 in an ls1 could easily rev to 6800 if not 6900. My 228R 114 pulled to 7300 were I enabled fuel cut off. LS1's have stout valve trains and like to rev, and they also like to flow. Why would you restrict a motor that naturally starts to make power at 3000 rpm by doing a small lsa? You want the larger lsa. The cam rpm's will match the engine flow characteristics in stock trim much better which most likely will get better fuel economy. Ppl will disagree all day but look at the factory lsa's in the ls series engine or as GM labels it LDA's. They are all 116+the engine likes to flow in that manner.
The 114 in an ls1 could easily rev to 6800 if not 6900. My 228R 114 pulled to 7300 were I enabled fuel cut off. LS1's have stout valve trains and like to rev, and they also like to flow. Why would you restrict a motor that naturally starts to make power at 3000 rpm by doing a small lsa? You want the larger lsa. The cam rpm's will match the engine flow characteristics in stock trim much better which most likely will get better fuel economy. Ppl will disagree all day but look at the factory lsa's in the ls series engine or as GM labels it LDA's. They are all 116+the engine likes to flow in that manner.
What's the point of revving to 6900-7300rpms when the LS1,LS6 and Fast intakes cannot move air efficiently at those points. Lower 112 LSA brings on the power sooner enabling the car to get in powerband faster than a 114LSA and makes power within a more productive and efficient range than a 114LSA. You want a lower LSA, I went from a 114 to a 111LSA, and there was a significant low and midrange difference.
07-22-2009, 02:10 PM
#23
All my motors spin 7k plus even my dd.
The ls1 stock valvetrain has no problem spinning into the high 7's and sustain the abuse. Look at the CTS-V racers they are stock valvetrain. The stock rocker arm is actually entirely more robust than any aftermarket because of the surface area contact with the valve. The only difference between the race cars and stock is that the hydrualic lifters are specially choosen so if over reved one lifter doesn't over pump and cause piston to valve interference. Race hyrdaulics have very small tolerance in maximum lifter travel where stock can have a mm or so of variation between them.
Once springs are upgraded no problem sustaining higher rpms.
As to spinning that high and the intakes not being able to support it I highly disagree. Since flow loss has to do with restrictions inside the runners and across the tb. The LS6 intake is the best intake GM ever EVER produced hands down. It uses a solid core casting, the mold is made of tin or something similiar and melted out after the part is cast. Therefore there are no restrictions or lips within the manifold runners to hinder flow.
The runner size might be a little small for larger displacement engines but for stock displacement or a little bit larger it should be fine for under 600 hp no problem. Since power dictates flow. M dot will not be high enough at lower than 600 hp maybe 550 power levels to really start choking itself. The intake runners are fine its really a matter of pressure loss across the tb which becomes the restriciton at higher power levels and flow.
Therefore I tend to look at head flow characteristics when the intake manifold isn't in question. I have no idea about fast intakes so I cannot comment. All i know is that i wouldn't expect to see more than 5 hp increase over the ls6 on a stock engine. And not much more on a modified unless the tb was opened up
I never said there wouldn't be a noticeable difference in low end becaues you are shifting the torque curve around which significantly changes hp at lower rpms, but not necessarily seat of the pants feel.
The ls1 stock valvetrain has no problem spinning into the high 7's and sustain the abuse. Look at the CTS-V racers they are stock valvetrain. The stock rocker arm is actually entirely more robust than any aftermarket because of the surface area contact with the valve. The only difference between the race cars and stock is that the hydrualic lifters are specially choosen so if over reved one lifter doesn't over pump and cause piston to valve interference. Race hyrdaulics have very small tolerance in maximum lifter travel where stock can have a mm or so of variation between them.
Once springs are upgraded no problem sustaining higher rpms.
As to spinning that high and the intakes not being able to support it I highly disagree. Since flow loss has to do with restrictions inside the runners and across the tb. The LS6 intake is the best intake GM ever EVER produced hands down. It uses a solid core casting, the mold is made of tin or something similiar and melted out after the part is cast. Therefore there are no restrictions or lips within the manifold runners to hinder flow.
The runner size might be a little small for larger displacement engines but for stock displacement or a little bit larger it should be fine for under 600 hp no problem. Since power dictates flow. M dot will not be high enough at lower than 600 hp maybe 550 power levels to really start choking itself. The intake runners are fine its really a matter of pressure loss across the tb which becomes the restriciton at higher power levels and flow.
Therefore I tend to look at head flow characteristics when the intake manifold isn't in question. I have no idea about fast intakes so I cannot comment. All i know is that i wouldn't expect to see more than 5 hp increase over the ls6 on a stock engine. And not much more on a modified unless the tb was opened up
I never said there wouldn't be a noticeable difference in low end becaues you are shifting the torque curve around which significantly changes hp at lower rpms, but not necessarily seat of the pants feel.
Last edited by Radcannon; 07-22-2009 at 02:18 PM.
07-22-2009, 05:24 PM
#24
Yea basically just pick what you want, the difference of changing the lsa to a high or low one seems to be so small that it isnt worth it until the high rpms. I personally got the 112 for the lope sound.. that's it basically, as do alot of people lol. My friends 116 cam pulls like the same as mine does, we barely notice a difference and you still have plenty of power down low to just drive around like a normal person. If you intend to be flooring it from 2k then that would kinda defeat the purpose of getting a performance cam in my eyes anyways!
03-09-2011, 07:49 AM
#27
TECH Regular
I'm about to pull the trigger on a new cam too. This cam (228r/112) sounds like what I am looking for. I only want to spin my motor up to 6500, (stock bottem end). I have stock 241 heads, LS6 manifold, ARH L/T's, M6 and 3.89 gears. Will this cam work for me? I will be getting all the extra parts,springs, push rods, etc. I assume ther is no PTV clearance issues with this cam. thanks for your input. 
03-09-2011, 07:49 AM
#28
TECH Senior Member
All my motors spin 7k plus even my dd.
The ls1 stock valvetrain has no problem spinning into the high 7's and sustain the abuse. Look at the CTS-V racers they are stock valvetrain. The stock rocker arm is actually entirely more robust than any aftermarket because of the surface area contact with the valve. The only difference between the race cars and stock is that the hydrualic lifters are specially choosen so if over reved one lifter doesn't over pump and cause piston to valve interference. Race hyrdaulics have very small tolerance in maximum lifter travel where stock can have a mm or so of variation between them.
Once springs are upgraded no problem sustaining higher rpms.
As to spinning that high and the intakes not being able to support it I highly disagree. Since flow loss has to do with restrictions inside the runners and across the tb. The LS6 intake is the best intake GM ever EVER produced hands down. It uses a solid core casting, the mold is made of tin or something similiar and melted out after the part is cast. Therefore there are no restrictions or lips within the manifold runners to hinder flow.
The runner size might be a little small for larger displacement engines but for stock displacement or a little bit larger it should be fine for under 600 hp no problem. Since power dictates flow. M dot will not be high enough at lower than 600 hp maybe 550 power levels to really start choking itself. The intake runners are fine its really a matter of pressure loss across the tb which becomes the restriciton at higher power levels and flow.
Therefore I tend to look at head flow characteristics when the intake manifold isn't in question. I have no idea about fast intakes so I cannot comment. All i know is that i wouldn't expect to see more than 5 hp increase over the ls6 on a stock engine. And not much more on a modified unless the tb was opened up
I never said there wouldn't be a noticeable difference in low end becaues you are shifting the torque curve around which significantly changes hp at lower rpms, but not necessarily seat of the pants feel.
The ls1 stock valvetrain has no problem spinning into the high 7's and sustain the abuse. Look at the CTS-V racers they are stock valvetrain. The stock rocker arm is actually entirely more robust than any aftermarket because of the surface area contact with the valve. The only difference between the race cars and stock is that the hydrualic lifters are specially choosen so if over reved one lifter doesn't over pump and cause piston to valve interference. Race hyrdaulics have very small tolerance in maximum lifter travel where stock can have a mm or so of variation between them.
Once springs are upgraded no problem sustaining higher rpms.
As to spinning that high and the intakes not being able to support it I highly disagree. Since flow loss has to do with restrictions inside the runners and across the tb. The LS6 intake is the best intake GM ever EVER produced hands down. It uses a solid core casting, the mold is made of tin or something similiar and melted out after the part is cast. Therefore there are no restrictions or lips within the manifold runners to hinder flow.
The runner size might be a little small for larger displacement engines but for stock displacement or a little bit larger it should be fine for under 600 hp no problem. Since power dictates flow. M dot will not be high enough at lower than 600 hp maybe 550 power levels to really start choking itself. The intake runners are fine its really a matter of pressure loss across the tb which becomes the restriciton at higher power levels and flow.
Therefore I tend to look at head flow characteristics when the intake manifold isn't in question. I have no idea about fast intakes so I cannot comment. All i know is that i wouldn't expect to see more than 5 hp increase over the ls6 on a stock engine. And not much more on a modified unless the tb was opened up
I never said there wouldn't be a noticeable difference in low end becaues you are shifting the torque curve around which significantly changes hp at lower rpms, but not necessarily seat of the pants feel.
03-09-2011, 08:32 AM
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Hey breze84.... If you haven't purchased a cam yet you mite wanna consider contacting the tech member above "PREDATOR-Z"....He can spec you a cam to make some serious power!!.........I wanted a cam on a 114 or 115 lsa to be stelth & have a smooth idle. I contacted PRED-Z & he speced me a baby cam on a 111 lsa that still idle smooth & make's crazy (tire melting,10 bolt breaking) power rite off throttle!!!!
THANKS MARK!!!! LOL!!!
THANKS MARK!!!! LOL!!!
03-09-2011, 07:41 PM
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