Old SStroker

I'm all for LS1 upgrades to gen I Camaros but I think he'll run out of money before he gets close to being done. That would be a shame.

"Hofstadter's Law of Restifying Old Cars" applies: "It always takes more money than you planned, even when you take into account Hofstadter's Law"

Ralphy g-Machine

iTrader: (3)

Okay not to sound like a di*k or anything as i do appreciate your comments, its just that you made it seem as if I haven't done my research..i've researched this car for THREE years before i have begun building it....


1) With your limited engine budget, why an LS1?, especially since installing it in a 1st Gen is more work ($) than using an older SBC. I think your goals could be met with a reasonably economical 383 like 96Z has in his car. I's an LT1, and pre-LT1 is even less expensive. The extra few lbs won't be a deal-spoiler, IMO.

I am going for an ultra handling car here...top of the line pro-touring car, not to sound boastful or like a di*k but I'm pretty much building the best of the best here suspension/brakes/wheels/tires/engine(well maybe not best of the best as it isn't FI, but damn near close)/interior and all that good stuff, and I wouldn't settle for anything less than an all aluminum fuel injected sbc.

2) Parallel 4-link rear for 1 g cornering? Unless it was specifically designed for reasonable roll-steer characteristics, you might be disappointed. Most 4-links I've seen are basically for dragging. Who did the suspension design? There are a couple of things you can do to front geometry which will help also.

Sorry, you misunderstood me, I am not talking about 4-link rear suspension...I am talking about a parallel 4 BAR rear suspension.,..much different...specifically designed by a GM engineer who goes by the name of Mark Stielow (He's the dude that built the MULE...one of the baddest 69's around...its been in popular hotrodding for the past two years.) It is designed with ONLY handling in mind...the bars are parallel attached from the rear end to a crossmember...there is also adjustable coilovers mounted at a 20* angle for handling purposes...there is also an adjustable panhard bar..which is where the handling aspects takes over...the adjustable panhard is designed specifically with handling in mind...the car will be set up for handling..nothing elsethe Mule has a later acceleration capabilities of 1 G with similar setup that i am using..rear suspension wise anyways..As for upfront..I will be using detroit speed and engineering tubular upper and lower control arms with additional caster built into them...they are far superior than the guldstrand modification which is what i thnk you are referring to when you talk about front end geometry...i am using the tubular UCA/LCA's in accordance with detroit speeds coilover kit which relocates the arm mounting points even more providing more cornering ability..along with the help of adjustable coilovers...as for the rest of the suspension...the front will see a 1 1/8 inch hollow rear sway bar from hotchkis, along with DSE subframe connectors and a custom rear sway bar for the rear of the car....

3) 170mph in a '68 will need a little aero work to keep it near the ground. Cup spoiler sounds good. Front air dam needs work, and getting the car low enough in the front and with about an inch of rake will help.

This is the common consensus among people however I have gone over the setup of my car and the projected hp numbers with an engineer who used to work for Dick Guldstrand many moons ago...he has built over 30 road racing camaros in his career and it was his estimation that with the weight of my car..along with about 99 other details anywhere from wheel gap distances...to coilover rates...to tire sizes..to pretty much anything you can think of...(I can give you the post where i stated the info to him if you want..that is where he made his projected top speed of mid to high 170's...)

4) There is a lot more published how-to-build-it info for older SBC than for LS1. I think you'd be much more successful going that route.

I Totally understand where you are coming from with this, its just that the modern G-machine as we like to call our old muscle cars that handle...we go for handling, appearance (read: 18inch kinesis 3 piece forged wheels all around, with 335 series rubber out back), and power to get us through the twisties.....mind you that when i go to the track..i will slap a set of 29x13 inch mickeys out back on 16 inch rims and remove the front sway bar.along with adjusting my coilovers for 90/10 distribution...so there are my answers to your questions..again i didn't mean to come off as an a-hole or anything..simply stating my opinion

Happy motoring!



Tony,

You convinced me and I wont go another route with my car...don't worry buddy..I don't think I'll ever build a non LS engined car in the future either..i've got a 70 T/A planned after this car which will include a twin turboed ls1...Intelligent minds think alike btw..i already have an extra outlet on my gas tank made specifically for adding nitrous..could the stock bottom end handle a 100 or 150 shot, or is that asking for trouble? That would get me into the 10's right?

Bill,

I hear ya man..i have been looking for an 01-02 wrecked car..Thanks for the advice!

Jason,
I need to ask you about your D&D tranny, i thought those transmissions were made for use only with old bbc and sbc's?? D&D makes a version for the ls1??? What is the tq rating, 550?? How much money..please do elaborate on your setup here..p.s. your car is gunna be CRAZY....much the same as what i'm building!! (Just 30 years apart lol)

To the two tuners that replied here..i will give you guys a call when the time comes for this!! Thanks for the responses!!

JasonZ28

Here ya go Ralph, this is a link to their GM T-56 page, the ls1 tranny is 1,999.00

You can take a stock t-56 and rebuild it using their parts and come out a bit cheaper.

http://ddperformance.com/GM%20T56.htm

Ralphy g-Machine

iTrader: (3)

hey jason,

WAy cool!! thanks for the info..i will probably rebuild my tranny using their parts, either that or have them rebuild it for me...$250 labor isn't bad at all...thanks again man!!

Old SStroker

Stielow does great stuff. I especially like the way he goes about it.

FWIW, panhard location only determines roll center height, which is only one factor in rear suspension geometry you need to be concerned about. Angled c/o's don't have much to do with handling, just with how effective the spring is.

I don't recall Stielow publishing the exact pickup points. Making it similar but not exactly the same may not give the same results. Roll steer and anti-squat are very important consideratons, especially when combined with the front suspension characteristics.



If you are looking for 1 g, the front suspension has to have the correct camber gain, roll center location, and bump steer. You'll be using tires with almost twice the tread width of those for which the first Gen F-bodys were designed, so those parameters are critical. I would be interested in what geometry you have decided upon. There are a few suspension analysis programs available for a couple hundred $ which, if you have good input data, will give this information. If they also include rear suspension calculations, you have a chance of designing a total suspension system with the chacteristics you need. They won't design your suspension, they will just tell you what it will do. This is probably more difficult than modifying an engine design.


It sounds like you have enough information to keep it from flying. That's good.
I fully understand your feelings about G-machines...more than you know. I also support you goals, which are many of mine when it comes to old muscle or pony cars. However, I also know some of the pitfalls you may not have considered; please don't take offense when I point them out. Your enthusiasm is refreshing, and I don't want to be a wet blanket. Go for it, and keep looking for funds. Did you ever notice that costs aren't mentioned a lot in the Stielow articles?

Ralphy g-Machine

iTrader: (3)

Hey,

Glad this didn't turn into a flame fest...I was afraid that was what was going to happen...

Okay let me try and not forget anything here...As for the rear suspension..if I go into more detail maybe it will help you and I to come to terms and maybe you can even help me as it seems you really know your stuff...I'm a novice when it comes to suspension setups..I am only doing a 4 bar for a few reasons..its relatively cheap, it most likely will handle better than a leaf spring rear suspension, i can use a straight axle so i can run high hp numbers, and it looks trick...the suspension kit I am using is from Art Morrison Enterprieses, it is primairly set up for drag racing and street rods, but I am only using their kit and then modifying it, I will be going with a custom crossmember built to stielows specs, or very similar, along with custom pick up points and distances the bars are placed from each other. the panhard is also adjustable so like you said i can determine different roll centers and what not..the custom rear sway bar will help to minimize body roll...As for the coilovers being mounted at 20*, I was told this was the optimal angle to mount them in my situation. The spring rates of the coilovers for daily driving and road racing will be 200lbs.

Now for the front suspension. I am not sure if you are familair with Kyle and Stacy Tucker from detroit speed and engineering, you might be? they were both GM engineers at one point who decided to go into business in the aftermarket by themselves. They designed the coilover kit, it's mounting points and the tubular upper and lower control arms (only upper changes caster..lower will be stock just for looks) on the 1999 street machine of the year(the twister camaro) so as far as geometry is concerned, they know their stuff and they have it set up pretty good, IMHO they have the best aftermarket setup on the market right now. The coilover rates up front will be 550lb's for daily driving and road racing...again these rates were given to me by the guy whose name i wont mention that used to work for dick guldstrand. Also these programs that you talk about were definitely in use when designing the front suspension..check out DSE at their website... www.detroitspeed.com I am sure they would be more than happy to answer any questions you may have as they are the nicest people i have ever dealt with...

Now when the car will see speeds of 170+ the spring rates will be drastically changed to keep the car on the ground and keep it from bottoming out..I'm not sure about the rear spring rates but in order to keep the front stable the spring rates will be somewhere in the upwards of 800lbs, possibly higher. The rear springs i would guess would be about 350-400lbs?

The wheel and tire combination that will be going on the car will be as follows 18x8 upfront with 5" b/s along with 245/40/ZR18 tires, rear will be 18x12 with an undetermined b/s at the current moment(probably 7 inches) and a 335/30/ZR18 series tire. The suspension was also designed with these tire sizes in mind, as stielow took into account having the big rubber out back, and kyle and stacy took into account hte 245's up front...

P.S. Stielow cars are EXPENSIVE!!!!

oh yeah, if you love old G-machines, come hang out at

www.pro-touring.com There is a great bunch of guys that hang out there, Tony is there from time to time as well..its always good to get a refreshing spin on things!

I go by the same handle on pt.com as well..you'll find me if your there, i'm a bit of a post-wh*re lol...

Nine Ball

iTrader: (38)

www.pro-touring.com rocks! My 2nd favorite site

Old SStroker

[QUOTE=Ralph L]Hey,

As for the rear suspension. I'm a novice when it comes to suspension setups.I am only doing a 4 bar for a few reasons..its relatively cheap, it most likely will handle better than a leaf spring rear suspension, i can use a straight axle so i can run high hp numbers, and it looks trick...the suspension kit I am using is from Art Morrison Enterprieses, it is primairly set up for drag racing and street rods, but I am only using their kit and then modifying it, I will be going with a custom crossmember built to stielows specs, or very similar, along with custom pick up points and distances the bars are placed from each other. the panhard is also adjustable so like you said i can determine different roll centers and what not..the custom rear sway bar will help to minimize body roll...As for the coilovers being mounted at 20*, I was told this was the optimal angle to mount them in my situation. The spring rates of the coilovers for daily driving and road racing will be 200lbs.

Now for the front suspension. I am not sure if you are familair with Kyle and Stacy Tucker from detroit speed and engineering, you might be? they were both GM engineers at one point who decided to go into business in the aftermarket by themselves. They designed the coilover kit, it's mounting points and the tubular upper and lower control arms (only upper changes caster..lower will be stock just for looks) on the 1999 street machine of the year(the twister camaro) so as far as geometry is concerned, they know their stuff and they have it set up pretty good, IMHO they have the best aftermarket setup on the market right now. The coilover rates up front will be 550lb's for daily driving and road racing...again these rates were given to me by the guy whose name i wont mention that used to work for dick guldstrand. Also these programs that you talk about were definitely in use when designing the front suspension..check out DSE at their website... www.detroitspeed.com I am sure they would be more than happy to answer any questions you may have as they are the nicest people i have ever dealt with...

Now when the car will see speeds of 170+ the spring rates will be drastically changed to keep the car on the ground and keep it from bottoming out..I'm not sure about the rear spring rates but in order to keep the front stable the spring rates will be somewhere in the upwards of 800lbs, possibly higher. The rear springs i would guess would be about 350-400lbs?

The wheel and tire combination that will be going on the car will be as follows 18x8 upfront with 5" b/s along with 245/40/ZR18 tires, rear will be 18x12 with an undetermined b/s at the current moment(probably 7 inches) and a 335/30/ZR18 series tire. The suspension was also designed with these tire sizes in mind, as stielow took into account having the big rubber out back, and kyle and stacy took into account hte 245's up front...

QUOTE]

Are you thinking you'll need heavy springs to go 170+ because of the downforce? I think you'll be more concerned with lift: the front end, especially will be very light and floaty. IMO, heavy springs will be the wrong way to go, unless you are on a banked oval.

As far as spring and anti-roll bar rates, I hope they were calculated based on sprung weight, unsprung weight, weight distribution, motion ratios for both front and rear, and the type of "ride" you are looking at. If this is a race car which you plan to street drive that's one thing, and you'll want no compliance in the attachments. That means rod ends (Heim) or spherical bearings, or maybe Global Del-Alum, and a higher frequency ride rate than if it's a true street car which can be driven on the track. IOW, if a Z51 Vette seems way too soft, and suspension noise and harshness is ok, then calculate for that. Don't get fixated on arbitrary spring rates. Work with the wheel rates the car needs and back into springs. Race cars don't make good street cars and vice versa. Make sure your suspension designer knows your priorities and what you can tolerate in hashness/ride, etc. Did they quote a "ride frequency"?

Rear c/o angle is probably more of a "what can fit in the available space" thing. The wider you can space the axle attachment points, the more roll resistance the rear springs will provide. Has your suspension guy determined what % of the roll stiffness is spring and what is anti-roll bar? Different chassis guys have different ideas. If I recall correctly, Guldstrand was traditionally a "heavy spring-light bar" advocate on F-bodies, unlike Herb Adams who was more a "soft spring-heavy bar" guy. Whoever you use, have them do both ends of the car.

As to 4-bar handling better than leaf spring rear; maybe yes, maybe not. 60-70's Trans Am cars (Penske/Donahue especially) did well with the leafs they needed to use. Remember that the leaf spring suspension has tons of anti-squat (generally well over 100%), not much brake hop with staggered shocks, and a fairly low roll center height (at the spring pad or half way down the lowering blocks) and some roll understeer. Getting all these on a 4-bar isn't easy.

There is a neat 4-link suspension called a "Satchell Link" designed by Terry Satchell. It has angled lower arms, straight uppers and all arms attach at the outboard end of the axle. No panhard rod is used. Roll center height is much lower than traditional 4-link, and anti-squat and roll characteristics can be tailored to what you need. It also leaves quite a bit of room near the axle center for over-the-axle exhaust system like the parallel 4-bar. I'd try to use that before the Morrison 4-bar, but that's personal opinion.

Even if those tire sizes were part of the suspension calcs, your max lateral g will be limited by the 245s. As far as 335 rears, I think that might be too much for the 245 fronts. You will still have a front-heavy car even with the LS1; I'm guessing 52/48 or even 53/47. For 1 g track or skidpad use the 245s are going to be crying "Uncle" before the 335s get warmed up. Sure, Mark used lots of tire in the rear, but didn't he have a ton more power than you plan? He needed that much rear tire to get the power down. I'd look at rear section size of 295 and 255 or 265 fronts if you can get them to fit. For a similar weight/balance car which does fairly well on the track or skid pad, look at a Z06. Most fast cars with much larger rear tires (than fronts) are either very overpowered or rear heavy (Porsche or mid engine Ferrari, Lambo, etc.). If you have so much more grip in the rear, you'll have your roll couple distribution screwed too much rearward to get the car to turn or you'll need some roll oversteer which can be dangerous. That's just my (never humble) opinion.

Ackattack1

iTrader: (7)

Ralph good to see you over here.

I'll give you my opinion on some things. I'm not a big fan of the large lift cams (over .585 or so). It seems that at that point you really trade off reliability for a little bit of performance. 400 RWHP should be fairly easy to get with a medium sized cam (224-227ish duration at .050) and a set of stage II heads. Like everyone is saying the headers is what is going to be holding you back. Might want to do some more research into them to see if it's worth the extra cost of going with the LTs over the S&P headers. Might also look into the Macs...they might fit.

I'm still looking for my 600 RWHP LS1 1st gen camaro to start on

Ralphy g-Machine

iTrader: (3)

Hey guys,

Old SStroker,

I am going to forward this link to a friend of mine, the guy who designed the rear suspsension, his name is Anthony Rose, he is also a member of www.pro-touring.com and a good friend of mine, he will be able to better answer your concerns and questions because I am really getting lost in this discussion here lol, some of these terms and things are way over my head, he knows much better than I do. As for the 335's vs. 245's...The 245's are the widest that will fit on the car, however I think that I can run a 255 with some slight rubbing on the frame at full lock...Stielow ran 275's on the Mule up front...the reason for the 335's out back is more of an asthetic(sp) purpose..I just love those meats out back

Also keep in mind, the 1G handling is just a goal, often times in life(in my life anyways) we set goals that are sometimes unobtainable, the 1G is just a goal, probably one that i will not reach with this car...This car is just my car to learn on...the next car that I will be building will be a 1970 Trans-Am..with a twin turbo ls1, its basically going to be a race car for the streets, not to get into too much detail but the car will have tire sizes of 275-295 up front and 355+ out back...along with C5 front subframe from Wayne Due, and probably 4 bar rear suspsnsion again, or possibly IRS...that will be my track car..the camaro is just going to be an extremely well handling car for the streets...and will see some minor track use...

Hopefully my friend will get time to respond to your questions over the next few days...

Hey ack,

Glad to see you in this thread, I hear you on the big cams part...I talked with MTI on the phone today and for my application (400+rwhp) he recommended a set of Stage IIe heads along with a C2 cam..which if i remember correctly is pretty similar to the cam you are talking about...one reason for this is because I will probably be going to nitrous in the future and he doesn't recommend spraying with the X1...see ya around!

awr68

Ok Old SStroker, hears the deal...Ralph is copying my suspension for his project camaro. I was very impressed with what Mark did suspension wise on the Mule but I wanted to incorporate a full x-member into the design. So I purchased a AME 4-bar kit, built a x-member w/driveline loop and exhaust cutouts, used Stielows panhard design and a DSE upper shock x-member and QA1 coilovers. I'm using a Currie 9" w/ aluminum housing and Wilwood brakes. I also mini-tubbed it 2.5" to fit 315 tires.

When I designed this whole thing my concerns were that I didn't want to loose trunk space (no back halfing), must be able to use the stock back seat, wanted a coilover based suspension and an adjustable panhard. My goals for my car is that I want a very good handling street car that can hold it's own on the road course during open track days. I don't plan on all out racing this car since the build quality is too nice for that.

I am also using DSE's coilover based front suspension w/ Delrin bushings on a stock sub-frame, Hotchkis 1 1/8" hollow SB, DSE weld in sub-frame connectors, solid body mounts, fast ratio steering box and Wilwood 13" 6 piston brakes.

I don't claim to be a suspension expert and I am sure that you would stand out in a debate...but I do know that for what I need out of my car this suspension will fit the bill. I totally trust the Tuckers of DSE and know the front suspension is plenty for street use and pretty agressive to help at the road course. I personally feel both front and back suspensions will work well with eachother and I like the fact that they are both fairly adjustable. This is not a full on race car and was never meant to be...it is what it is........

For the record I am not the expert that helped run the numbers on Ralphs car...that's another guy from PT.com, I am his friend that figured out how to package a AME 4-bar suspension in a camaro w/o loosing trunk space or the back seat...you can see it at
http://www.hotrodhomepage.com/galler...968_camaro.htm

Hope this helps you understand what he was talking about.

Old SStroker

awr68,

You car is cool! The workmanship looks super. I'd sure like to have a ride when you get it done.

My concern for Ralph's suspension is that front and rear work together to achieve his goals. By doing some design work on a computer or even on paper (old guys like me still like pencils), I believe that the initial installation of mounting points, springs and maybe even bars can come very close to optimum. Moving pivot points up and down on a rear suspension by trial and error can be difficult, and costly.

Even if the front suspension has good camber and bump steer curves, and a reasonable roll center, if the rear suspension isn't coordinated, the handling will suffer. DSE's stuff looks good. I had trouble opening their website. I don't know if they are suggesting rear geometry to compliment the front. I hope so.

I like your choice of Currie rear end, Wildwood brakes, etc. Just what I would pick. Keep up the good work.

Jon (Old SStroker)

Ralphy g-Machine

iTrader: (3)

Hey guys,

Anthony,

Thanks for responding and answering the questions! MUCH appreciated

Jon,

I am going to call Kyle and talk to him about a few things today, one of the things I am going to talk about is if he thinks this rear suspension will compliment his front suspension setup. I'll let you know what he is able to come up with. I know for a fact that DSE is going to be coming out with a 4 bar rear setup similar to Anthony's and Mark's design in the coming years, so kyle must have faith that these two systems can work together.

As for the heavy spring rates for the 170+mph runs, I'll be honest with you, I am not sure as to why the rates are that high, from what I understand it is to keep the car from bottoming out if you hit a bump or something, but I am sure that there is a better reason than that. The guy who gave me the rates as you already know really knows his stuff so he can definitely answer those questions better I know that Big Red ran the silver state classic at an average speed of around 189mph for something like 90 miles.(Don't quote me on that but the stats are somewhere around that) with no extra downforce being added to the front end besides the stock spoiler.(that i am aware of atleast) I wil also have an adjustable rear spoiler on my car that can be adjusted to add downforce as needed for high mph runs.

Talk with ya soon,
Ralph

Ralphy g-Machine

iTrader: (3)

Hey guys,

Let me ask you this question, how do you feel about this possible engine combination.

This is what Terry from Patriot Performance recommend I go with to make 430rwhp :

Patriot Performance Stage II LS6 style heads with either 59cc or 72 cc combustion chambers(Which do I want and why?)
And a Texas Speed and Performance custom grind camshaft specs: 231/237 .598"/.595" 112 LSA
Along with all the bolt-ons and free mods as well as a bauer p&p throttle body and LS6 intake...probably through shorty headers.

Thanks!

awr68

Jon,
Thanks for the kind words!!! I would be more than happy to give you a ride when finished...what are you doing say the summer of '05?? LOL

I agree that if Ralph wants his car to near 200 mph he should at least run the numbers on a computor and see how it looks. In my case I don't think I have anything to worry about since my car will never see speeds even close to that...I'm hoping for 140 or so down the straights at PIR and possibly top speeds nearing 160 if I run the silver state classic. But in all reality I just want to have a little fun with it at open track events...nothing too serious. I don't think Ralph will see the kind of speeds he is hoping for with this car (but he'll get close) since it's primarily a street car...now his next project will for sure...and without setting the bar high we never experiance great things...so we can't knock him for trying!!

DSE designed their front suspension to be used with their 2" or 3" Drop Leafs...but as Ralph stated they are going to manufacture a 4 bar kit that is built off of Stielows fixture he built for the Mule...actually they have already installed a kit in a customers Firebird earlier this year...they have pics on their site. They used their front suspension on it as well...so my guess is they felt the two worked well together at least on a simular car/goals to mine.

Again, thanks for the compliments and I'll keep working away on it!!

Anthony

Ralphy g-Machine

iTrader: (3)

Hey Ant,

Thanks again!!!

Jon,

I didn't know Bret Bauer was your son, he is a stand up guy!! I talked to him wayy back when I was first planning out this project a few years ago and he was extremely helpful!! One of the first mods I plan on getting is a ported and powedercoated throttle body from him!!

P.S. Where in upstate NY are you, I'm out on the Island, in Smithtown.

Old SStroker

We're in the "real" NY. On the PA border, halfway across the state. About 30 miles south of Watkins Glen Race Track. 3-1/2 hours from Buffalo, 4+ hours from NYC. God's country...not Hillary's.