What Happened to Small Cams? Part 2
08-17-2009, 09:40 AM
#22
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08-17-2009, 09:43 AM
#23
Yep, I would totally agree with that statement! My old combo was an MTI B1 cam, ported 853's, LTs w/ true duals, Vig 3600, and stock 3.23 gears. On 255/50/16 ET Street Radials my car would go 11.4's on motor and 10.5's with a 125 shot at Houston International. On top of that, my car always ran a "nitrous" tune that had timing pulled out for spray, so in theory there was more left for an all motor run. My car had no lope at idle, and the car was only noticeable because of the exhaust being louder than stock. Sure, there were a lot of cars that were faster than me, BUT I out ran a LOT of cars with the "race car sound" because even though their peak HP was higher...I had a lot of torque/power under the curve, and all the parts complimented each other to make a very well put together setup!
Last edited by FormulaZR; 08-17-2009 at 10:35 AM.
08-17-2009, 10:19 AM
#25
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My tuner has a B1 cam and we are about equally modded, from a 45-90 race, I could only put about 1 car on him with my tr-224, and he runs 11s on motor.
08-17-2009, 10:20 AM
#26
2 things i preach:
1. combination.
2. custom grind cam
the cam really is part of the combo, but still, you get the point. ( i always recommend you Pred
) i laugh when people come in asking, "whats the biggest cam i can fit in my stock headed car?" but they want driveability and power under the curve as well. i really love when people want to run a big cam on the ls1 intake, or stock manifolds, or both.
big cams do sound great, but you can get that with a custom grind and a good tune. you dont need 24x/24x on a 110 lsa to get that. until heads come into the equation, i really dont see too many reasons for going into the 240s. im thinkin about putting "combo > big cam" in my sig actually, or something along those lines.
on a side note: i really hate when people tell you their cam size by lift.
1. combination.
2. custom grind cam
the cam really is part of the combo, but still, you get the point. ( i always recommend you Pred
) i laugh when people come in asking, "whats the biggest cam i can fit in my stock headed car?" but they want driveability and power under the curve as well. i really love when people want to run a big cam on the ls1 intake, or stock manifolds, or both. big cams do sound great, but you can get that with a custom grind and a good tune. you dont need 24x/24x on a 110 lsa to get that. until heads come into the equation, i really dont see too many reasons for going into the 240s. im thinkin about putting "combo > big cam" in my sig actually, or something along those lines.
on a side note: i really hate when people tell you their cam size by lift.
08-17-2009, 10:25 AM
#29
forgot to mention, just for reference for people reading this, i have 2 friends that did it the big cam way. one did a cc306 (lt1 obviously) with stock heads & intake and he made 335rwhp. the other (ls1) did a 239/245 (forgive me, im only 90% sure that was it, but it was a very big cam). he didnt even make 390rwhp and his torque curve was hideous.
08-17-2009, 10:43 AM
#32
6600 rpm clutch dump of death Administrator
People get hung up on "bigger is better". They think that jkust like everything else that if you put more duration in it, that it has to be better. But, better is a relative term. If you push the RPM window so and and so narrow, yes, the car will make a big peak power number. But, it will be a total pig to drive.
Yes, you can crutch it to some extent in various areas. But, you can have more fun on the street with a cam in the 220's and have a car that is much more "street friendly to drive".
Its also a matter of personal preference. Some people can't stand any drivabilty issues of a big cam car. Some folks don't even notice them. The issue as has already been brought up is combination, combination, combination.... I can comfortably drive a car with a 244/248 112+0 that doesn't get "up on the cam" until it gets to 1500-1800 RPM. But many folks would find the car hugely annoying. Its all matter of taste.
If folks want a choppy cam, instead of going with a cam over 240º and trying to spread it to 112 or 114 LSA, try putting a 220 or even up to a 224º with about 6-8 degrees of split on a 108 LSA set at about -1.
You'll have a cam that chops hard, and has plenty of punch in the mid range.
But, at the end of the day what everyone seems to forget is combination, combination, combination.... We've had these discussions over, and over and over again. Go back to the advanced tech thread and read the cam thread and go back several years.
Lets sorta go through the evolution of cams for the LS1.
In 98 and 99 a 220º on a 112 was considered a "radical cam" because of the lack of tuning software. You did what you could, and you drilled the throttle blade to leak enough air to keep the motor running.
in 2000 to 2002 tuning software got better and we made the jump all the way to the 224º lobes. Some folks began to play with reverse split cams which folks seem to still not understand. I think there are quite a few folks, especially those who want to "poor" boy their setups. That would benefit from a reverse split as its forgiving of some of the less than ideal setups on some of the cars at the cost of some peak power, but keep the mid range looking good.
In 2003 we really started to see a jump in the "bigger" cams. These were cams in the 230's. So, you had the G5X3, and other "big" cams. Tuning software was getting better and better along with better springs and lobe selections.
After 2003 things really started to get crazy. In 2004 the Lsk lobes started appearing, tuning software like HPT, and EFI LIVE got into the hands of more end users, and it became more and more common to see high 230's as the "norm". For a big cam. Also, many of the shops wanted to sell cams.
So, they gave the end user what they wanted. You can talk privately to many of the shops about some of these big cams. They will tell you straight up that the cams are there for one reason. If you priavtely discussed it with them and just told them to put a cam in for you they probably put you in a mid 220's cam.
So, why do shops sell monster cam. Simple, people want them, and to generate revenue. If they don't sell it to you, someone else will. They might as well make the profit if you are hell bent to buy the biggest cam you c an get. People want "the biggest cam that will fit under stock heads". So, they have a motor that really can't take advantage of the RPM range a cam that big needs. It makes big peak power number, and its a pig to drive, but they don't know any better, so they are happy. The shop sells a cam, and the worlds a great place.
Yes, you can crutch it to some extent in various areas. But, you can have more fun on the street with a cam in the 220's and have a car that is much more "street friendly to drive".
Its also a matter of personal preference. Some people can't stand any drivabilty issues of a big cam car. Some folks don't even notice them. The issue as has already been brought up is combination, combination, combination.... I can comfortably drive a car with a 244/248 112+0 that doesn't get "up on the cam" until it gets to 1500-1800 RPM. But many folks would find the car hugely annoying. Its all matter of taste.
If folks want a choppy cam, instead of going with a cam over 240º and trying to spread it to 112 or 114 LSA, try putting a 220 or even up to a 224º with about 6-8 degrees of split on a 108 LSA set at about -1.
You'll have a cam that chops hard, and has plenty of punch in the mid range.
But, at the end of the day what everyone seems to forget is combination, combination, combination.... We've had these discussions over, and over and over again. Go back to the advanced tech thread and read the cam thread and go back several years.
Lets sorta go through the evolution of cams for the LS1.
In 98 and 99 a 220º on a 112 was considered a "radical cam" because of the lack of tuning software. You did what you could, and you drilled the throttle blade to leak enough air to keep the motor running.
in 2000 to 2002 tuning software got better and we made the jump all the way to the 224º lobes. Some folks began to play with reverse split cams which folks seem to still not understand. I think there are quite a few folks, especially those who want to "poor" boy their setups. That would benefit from a reverse split as its forgiving of some of the less than ideal setups on some of the cars at the cost of some peak power, but keep the mid range looking good.
In 2003 we really started to see a jump in the "bigger" cams. These were cams in the 230's. So, you had the G5X3, and other "big" cams. Tuning software was getting better and better along with better springs and lobe selections.
After 2003 things really started to get crazy. In 2004 the Lsk lobes started appearing, tuning software like HPT, and EFI LIVE got into the hands of more end users, and it became more and more common to see high 230's as the "norm". For a big cam. Also, many of the shops wanted to sell cams.
So, they gave the end user what they wanted. You can talk privately to many of the shops about some of these big cams. They will tell you straight up that the cams are there for one reason. If you priavtely discussed it with them and just told them to put a cam in for you they probably put you in a mid 220's cam.
So, why do shops sell monster cam. Simple, people want them, and to generate revenue. If they don't sell it to you, someone else will. They might as well make the profit if you are hell bent to buy the biggest cam you c an get. People want "the biggest cam that will fit under stock heads". So, they have a motor that really can't take advantage of the RPM range a cam that big needs. It makes big peak power number, and its a pig to drive, but they don't know any better, so they are happy. The shop sells a cam, and the worlds a great place.
08-17-2009, 11:25 AM
#34
6600 rpm clutch dump of death Administrator
Look at the old MTI grinds. Those letters stand for who the cam was ground for. One of the early inovators was our very own Tony Whatley (Nine Ball). Thats who the T1 cam was named for. The T1 was a bleeding edge cam when it came out, and everyone swore you couldn't have a cam that big and have it idle...
Originally Posted by Nine Ball
Thats for sure! I was the first one on the net to clear "400 rwhp" with heads/cam, back in 1999. I was also the first one to use a 112 LSA camshaft on these engines. MTI Stage 2s with a T1 cam. Back then, people thought that 400 rwhp with heads/cam was THE target number. I still think my old numbers were impressive considering the car had stock tuning, an LS1 intake, and MAC headers (no longtubes back then), not to mention the relatively smaller 221/221 T1 cam.
08-17-2009, 11:31 AM
#35
Look at the old MTI grinds. Those letters stand for who the cam was ground for. One of the early inovators was our very own Tony Whatley (Nine Ball). Thats who the T1 cam was named for. The T1 was a bleeding edge cam when it came out, and everyone swore you couldn't have a cam that big and have it idle...
08-17-2009, 11:35 AM
#36
Look at the old MTI grinds. Those letters stand for who the cam was ground for. One of the early inovators was our very own Tony Whatley (Nine Ball). Thats who the T1 cam was named for. The T1 was a bleeding edge cam when it came out, and everyone swore you couldn't have a cam that big and have it idle...
heck, MTI was putting small cams in there bigger cube motors as well while still making power and great on the street.
08-17-2009, 11:36 AM
#37
id MUCH rather have a cam that makes USEABLE power on the street with slightly noticable lope to it than a cam that makes power at 4500 and higher rpm with a lope that sounds like its killing baby jesus...
08-17-2009, 11:56 AM
#39
6600 rpm clutch dump of death Administrator
https://ls1tech.com/forums/10019-post15.html
T1 = Tony1 (Nine Ball)
T2 = Tony2 (Nine Ball)
B1 = Brooke1 (99RedHawk)
C1 = Campbell1 (Raughammer)
C2 = Campbell2 (Raughammer)
X1 = just a name
R1 = just a name
S1 = Sanders1 (Colonel)
( I thought the X was because of all the other "X" grinds out at the time. I thought the R was a "race" grind). The First X1 that I know of went into Poolfanatics' car...
T1 = Tony1 (Nine Ball)
T2 = Tony2 (Nine Ball)
B1 = Brooke1 (99RedHawk)
C1 = Campbell1 (Raughammer)
C2 = Campbell2 (Raughammer)
X1 = just a name
R1 = just a name
S1 = Sanders1 (Colonel)
( I thought the X was because of all the other "X" grinds out at the time. I thought the R was a "race" grind). The First X1 that I know of went into Poolfanatics' car...
Last edited by J-Rod; 08-17-2009 at 12:17 PM.
08-17-2009, 01:08 PM
#40
What I don't understand is why anyone would get so bent out of shape over another person's cam choice?? What does it matter? It doesn't affect you does it??
I chose a 230/230 cam because I wanted the 'best' cam for what I was trying to accomplish. I could care less what anyone thinks of my cam choice nor do I care what anyone else purchases.
Most all of the cams have their place.
I chose a 230/230 cam because I wanted the 'best' cam for what I was trying to accomplish. I could care less what anyone thinks of my cam choice nor do I care what anyone else purchases.
Most all of the cams have their place.