BUDGET LQ4 Combo advice wanted..
10-14-2009, 09:05 AM
#21
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A little more info for you, when i got the car it had an ls6 intake/ported TB and the 228/230 cam. It put down 410 with that combo.
10-16-2009, 11:29 PM
#22
I SWEAR your car looks familiar....Well, I reckon this thread could use a name change, lol.... After thinking, and thinking, and THINKING.... I decided to start with the bottom end rather than trying to squeeze myself out from under this possible mediocre set-up and not reach the fullest potential of my build. It's gonna take a bigger initial installment monetarily speaking, but I believe in my gut it's the right thing to do. It's tough to really SEE IT, until I remove MYSELF from the equation and really look at it without emotion and ****, lol. While I am SURE I can do this with a budget minded approach with the right combination and plenty of patience, I figure it'd be more plausible in the long run (I intend to keep this car for a WHILE) to start off with a good FOUNDATION.
I thought long and hard on it, and decided to pick up a good forged rotating assembly with quality flat-top's, and take the block in to be CNC bored/decked/etc.... It's gonna cost a bit more to get started, like I said, but not MUCH more than if I had bought a new set of the right aftermarket heads, intake, custom cam, and tune to get all this working, and then I'd STILL be sitting on a stock shortblock. I dont want that in the back of my head with how I am going to be running this motor day in and day out.
I have the 317's and LS6 intake I can run for a few months as I acclimate myself with the car "post-swap" and give my wallet time to recoop, THEN I can grab up a pair of aftermarket heads, a F.A.S.T. intake and T/B, and do a nice custom grind cam THEN.
I think swapping the heads, cam, and intake in 6 months makes FAR more sense than swapping out the bottom end when it all comes down to it. I figure most of you guys would say the same. In the mean time, I'll upgrade the springs/locks/retainers and toss in an OTS grind cam to have a little fun even with the LS6 intake, and can always sell that stuff off when the time comes for the good stuff.I'll keep y'all posted, and if anybody has any questions or comments, feel free to post up.
Thanks for all the help and insight fella's, I SINCERELY appreciate it!
-Greg
10-17-2009, 09:54 AM
#23
TECH Fanatic
Good call buddy. I WILL be using the Katech rodbolts, and I'd be a fool not to. I had heard that the stockers were not a problem, and heard also that they were. I think it'd be cheap insurance, and for sure "piece of mind" to say the very least.
As for the intake, I know I will not reach the fullest potential of the set-up without the F.A.S.T. units, but can always go back and upgrade after my wallet has recovered a bit from the initial blow of the swap itself. Also, nice numbers from your previous set-up.
What is your current one if you dont mind me asking?
Thanks for clarifying that Jon, and I can clearly see how that could "go down"... I understand your position as far as not wanting to take the food off the tables of our forum sponsors as well as possible friendships you may have here also.
Thanks LS1tech!
-Greg
I WILL be using the Katech rodbolts, and I'd be a fool not to. I had heard that the stockers were not a problem, and heard also that they were. I think it'd be cheap insurance, and for sure "piece of mind" to say the very least.As for the intake, I know I will not reach the fullest potential of the set-up without the F.A.S.T. units, but can always go back and upgrade after my wallet has recovered a bit from the initial blow of the swap itself. Also, nice numbers from your previous set-up.
What is your current one if you dont mind me asking?Thanks for clarifying that Jon, and I can clearly see how that could "go down"... I understand your position as far as not wanting to take the food off the tables of our forum sponsors as well as possible friendships you may have here also.
Thanks LS1tech!
-Greg
You are either a very nice person, or a bit naive. The only reason I don't mention non-sponsors or critique specific sponsor stuff that either isn't all it is cracked (hyped) up to be or is, IMO junk, is because that kind of post is purged (deleted) or it starts a poopstorm from said sponsors. This has happened in the past. Ya'll have to remember who pays the bills here. "He who pays the piper calls the tune."--Proverb
I'm nowhere near that nice of a guy. Do I think there are non-sponsors who have products/services better than sponsors? Sure.
Back OT:
The LS bottom end is so well designed and built and is so strong that spending money to replace OEM parts with forged aftermarket parts (except for rod bolts) for NA engines up to 550+ rwhp is more for owner comfort than necessity. Sure, if you want to bore/stroke for more cubes you need new parts, but going from a 364 (6L) to a 383 ain't much bang for the buck.
IMO (never humble) spend you money on the parts that make the power, namely: heads, valvetrain (including cam), exhaust and intake, pretty much in that order of importance. Obviously (to some), these components need to be matched correctly for the best outcome. That says DIY engine design is not the best idea. The only thing worse is an "internet design" with input from every swingin' Richard who professes to know what works.
I don't design engines for others, but I have enough automotive engineering background and experience as well as lots of contacts with folks who do that well to know what works, and more importantly, why it works...or doesn't. I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express recently.
There are a lot of engines out there with indestructible forged aftermarket bottom ends that don't make anywhere near enough power to make a stock LS bottom end even break into a sweat. Often that's because the 3 grand or so for a great heads/cam combo wasn't available in the budget after the bottom end was done. To me that's not only unwise, but downright foolish.
You probably don't like hearing this. Just take it as one guy's opinion. Opinions are like **** orifices...everybody has one.
Good luck with your build.
Jon
10-17-2009, 12:29 PM
#24
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Greg,
You are either a very nice person, or a bit naive. The only reason I don't mention non-sponsors or critique specific sponsor stuff that either isn't all it is cracked (hyped) up to be or is, IMO junk, is because that kind of post is purged (deleted) or it starts a poopstorm from said sponsors. This has happened in the past. Ya'll have to remember who pays the bills here. "He who pays the piper calls the tune."--Proverb
I'm nowhere near that nice of a guy. Do I think there are non-sponsors who have products/services better than sponsors? Sure.
You are either a very nice person, or a bit naive. The only reason I don't mention non-sponsors or critique specific sponsor stuff that either isn't all it is cracked (hyped) up to be or is, IMO junk, is because that kind of post is purged (deleted) or it starts a poopstorm from said sponsors. This has happened in the past. Ya'll have to remember who pays the bills here. "He who pays the piper calls the tune."--Proverb
I'm nowhere near that nice of a guy. Do I think there are non-sponsors who have products/services better than sponsors? Sure.
Jon why is it that almost everyone of your posts is about sponsors that aren't so good or have junk products. I will agreed that you mix in a bit of "tech ", but the main goal is to sway the crowd and carry out your son's agenda a little more diplomatically.
If you and Bert are SO great and your products shine above all the junk that is sold here I suggest you pony up some advertising dollar from Elmira Grinding and give LS1tech.com a shot. I figure if the BRE cams and T4P heads have such an advantage over the rest of this trash you will easily make up your advertising money and put a good amount of change in your pocket. You might even be able to construct the Bauer Racing compound, buy a 5 axis CNC, Newen, and all the rest of the toys
10-17-2009, 06:13 PM
#26
Greg,
You are either a very nice person, or a bit naive. The only reason I don't mention non-sponsors or critique specific sponsor stuff that either isn't all it is cracked (hyped) up to be or is, IMO junk, is because that kind of post is purged (deleted) or it starts a poopstorm from said sponsors. This has happened in the past. Ya'll have to remember who pays the bills here. "He who pays the piper calls the tune."--Proverb
I'm nowhere near that nice of a guy. Do I think there are non-sponsors who have products/services better than sponsors? Sure.
Back OT:
The LS bottom end is so well designed and built and is so strong that spending money to replace OEM parts with forged aftermarket parts (except for rod bolts) for NA engines up to 550+ rwhp is more for owner comfort than necessity. Sure, if you want to bore/stroke for more cubes you need new parts, but going from a 364 (6L) to a 383 ain't much bang for the buck.
IMO (never humble) spend you money on the parts that make the power, namely: heads, valvetrain (including cam), exhaust and intake, pretty much in that order of importance. Obviously (to some), these components need to be matched correctly for the best outcome. That says DIY engine design is not the best idea. The only thing worse is an "internet design" with input from every swingin' Richard who professes to know what works.
I don't design engines for others, but I have enough automotive engineering background and experience as well as lots of contacts with folks who do that well to know what works, and more importantly, why it works...or doesn't. I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express recently.
There are a lot of engines out there with indestructible forged aftermarket bottom ends that don't make anywhere near enough power to make a stock LS bottom end even break into a sweat. Often that's because the 3 grand or so for a great heads/cam combo wasn't available in the budget after the bottom end was done. To me that's not only unwise, but downright foolish.
You probably don't like hearing this. Just take it as one guy's opinion. Opinions are like **** orifices...everybody has one.
Good luck with your build.
Jon
You are either a very nice person, or a bit naive. The only reason I don't mention non-sponsors or critique specific sponsor stuff that either isn't all it is cracked (hyped) up to be or is, IMO junk, is because that kind of post is purged (deleted) or it starts a poopstorm from said sponsors. This has happened in the past. Ya'll have to remember who pays the bills here. "He who pays the piper calls the tune."--Proverb
I'm nowhere near that nice of a guy. Do I think there are non-sponsors who have products/services better than sponsors? Sure.
Back OT:
The LS bottom end is so well designed and built and is so strong that spending money to replace OEM parts with forged aftermarket parts (except for rod bolts) for NA engines up to 550+ rwhp is more for owner comfort than necessity. Sure, if you want to bore/stroke for more cubes you need new parts, but going from a 364 (6L) to a 383 ain't much bang for the buck.
IMO (never humble) spend you money on the parts that make the power, namely: heads, valvetrain (including cam), exhaust and intake, pretty much in that order of importance. Obviously (to some), these components need to be matched correctly for the best outcome. That says DIY engine design is not the best idea. The only thing worse is an "internet design" with input from every swingin' Richard who professes to know what works.
I don't design engines for others, but I have enough automotive engineering background and experience as well as lots of contacts with folks who do that well to know what works, and more importantly, why it works...or doesn't. I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express recently.
There are a lot of engines out there with indestructible forged aftermarket bottom ends that don't make anywhere near enough power to make a stock LS bottom end even break into a sweat. Often that's because the 3 grand or so for a great heads/cam combo wasn't available in the budget after the bottom end was done. To me that's not only unwise, but downright foolish.
You probably don't like hearing this. Just take it as one guy's opinion. Opinions are like **** orifices...everybody has one.
Good luck with your build.
Jon
As for the bottom end, I'm big on the ol' "there is no replacement for displacement" saying, and decided to go from the 364" to a 414".
And not to worry, I WILL be buying the right heads/cam/intake in the near future; they will NOT be pushed off over not having money left in the budget from doing the bottom end. Also, I can now jump on up to a fatter shot of the gas as well. I'm excited to say the least especially considering I'm doing what I believe to be the right thing here.</p>
Jon why is it that almost everyone of your posts is about sponsors that aren't so good or have junk products. I will agreed that you mix in a bit of "tech ", but the main goal is to sway the crowd and carry out your son's agenda a little more diplomatically.
If you and Bert are SO great and your products shine above all the junk that is sold here I suggest you pony up some advertising dollar from Elmira Grinding and give LS1tech.com a shot. I figure if the BRE cams and T4P heads have such an advantage over the rest of this trash you will easily make up your advertising money and put a good amount of change in your pocket. You might even be able to construct the Bauer Racing compound, buy a 5 axis CNC, Newen, and all the rest of the toys
Jon why is it that almost everyone of your posts is about sponsors that aren't so good or have junk products. I will agreed that you mix in a bit of "tech ", but the main goal is to sway the crowd and carry out your son's agenda a little more diplomatically.
If you and Bert are SO great and your products shine above all the junk that is sold here I suggest you pony up some advertising dollar from Elmira Grinding and give LS1tech.com a shot. I figure if the BRE cams and T4P heads have such an advantage over the rest of this trash you will easily make up your advertising money and put a good amount of change in your pocket. You might even be able to construct the Bauer Racing compound, buy a 5 axis CNC, Newen, and all the rest of the toys
Thanks guys,
-Greg
10-19-2009, 10:33 PM
#31
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Thought I would post up some results I had with an NA LQ4 in which I was really pleased.
2001 LQ4 Stock bottom end
-ARP Rod bolts
-Rollmaster Timing Chain
-Patriot Dual Springs
-ARP Head Bolts
-Futral Motorsports F13 Cam 230"/232" .595"/.585" 114LSA
-Unmilled #317 Heads with no port or chamber work.
-GM MLS 6.0 Head gaskets
-Pacesetter headers
-LS6 intake
-Stock waterpump.
-Stock Harmonic Balancer
-No A/C
-Stock ported throttle body
-Accel 36lb injectors
-Walbro 255 Fuel Pump Pump
The engine was in a 1999 Camaro with a TH350/3000 stall and the stock 10-bolt
On a Dynojet it put down 400rwhp/380rwtq on motor, never dynoed on nitrous.
Raceweight was 3540 3.42 gear
Motor 200 shot
60ft 1.68 1.45
1/8 7.7 6.71
1/4 12.0 @ 114 10.56 @ 128
I would think my setup would have dyno'd at least 5% or so higher through a T-56, which would put you at 420. Probably more like 10% though.
2001 LQ4 Stock bottom end
-ARP Rod bolts
-Rollmaster Timing Chain
-Patriot Dual Springs
-ARP Head Bolts
-Futral Motorsports F13 Cam 230"/232" .595"/.585" 114LSA
-Unmilled #317 Heads with no port or chamber work.
-GM MLS 6.0 Head gaskets
-Pacesetter headers
-LS6 intake
-Stock waterpump.
-Stock Harmonic Balancer
-No A/C
-Stock ported throttle body
-Accel 36lb injectors
-Walbro 255 Fuel Pump Pump
The engine was in a 1999 Camaro with a TH350/3000 stall and the stock 10-bolt
On a Dynojet it put down 400rwhp/380rwtq on motor, never dynoed on nitrous.
Raceweight was 3540 3.42 gear
Motor 200 shot
60ft 1.68 1.45
1/8 7.7 6.71
1/4 12.0 @ 114 10.56 @ 128
I would think my setup would have dyno'd at least 5% or so higher through a T-56, which would put you at 420. Probably more like 10% though.
10-20-2009, 08:38 PM
#32
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So a few guys were saying that the LQ9 was a better choice that the LQ4. What is the difference, I thought the 9 just had different heads that raised the compression ratio. All the stuff ive read was both 6.0L but one was like 9.40:1(LQ4) and the LQ9 was 10.0:1. Im confused?
10-21-2009, 01:42 AM
#33
So a few guys were saying that the LQ9 was a better choice that the LQ4. What is the difference, I thought the 9 just had different heads that raised the compression ratio. All the stuff ive read was both 6.0L but one was like 9.40:1(LQ4) and the LQ9 was 10.0:1. Im confused?
10-21-2009, 04:11 PM
#34
Budget LQ4 here with l92's and carb in a Foxbody.
Custom cam from Rapid Motorsports.
SCR is "only" 9.8/1
Did not rebuild the shortblock, just added standard ARP rod bolts.
This combo has nearly 100 passes with 7k shiftpoints without issue.
Details here
http://www.planetlsx.com/vehicles/Ch..._with_L92s/107
Food for thought.....
Dave
Custom cam from Rapid Motorsports.
SCR is "only" 9.8/1
Did not rebuild the shortblock, just added standard ARP rod bolts.
This combo has nearly 100 passes with 7k shiftpoints without issue.
Details here
http://www.planetlsx.com/vehicles/Ch..._with_L92s/107
Food for thought.....
Dave
10-21-2009, 04:19 PM
#35
Ahhh the sound of low compression with the "right" cam.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=idmuZ2e2xSE
enjoy
Dave
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=idmuZ2e2xSE
enjoy
Dave
10-21-2009, 04:26 PM
#36
TECH Fanatic
Budget LQ4 here with l92's and carb in a Foxbody.
Custom cam from Rapid Motorsports.
SCR is "only" 9.8/1
Did not rebuild the shortblock, just added standard ARP rod bolts.
This combo has nearly 100 passes with 7k shiftpoints without issue.
Details here
http://www.planetlsx.com/vehicles/Ch..._with_L92s/107
Food for thought.....
Dave
Custom cam from Rapid Motorsports.
SCR is "only" 9.8/1
Did not rebuild the shortblock, just added standard ARP rod bolts.
This combo has nearly 100 passes with 7k shiftpoints without issue.
Details here
http://www.planetlsx.com/vehicles/Ch..._with_L92s/107
Food for thought.....
Dave
Don't tell us how much money you have (or don't have) in the engine...some folks would shoot themselves if they knew. You don't want their blood on your hands.
Littlemo, meet Dave.
Jon
10-21-2009, 08:07 PM
#37
TECH Senior Member
Yes Jon, as I said L92/LS3 would be nice provided he notched his pistons. As Dave did. The OP initial post clearly stated "I do not want to FC my pistons". Also no mention how light his car is, and judging by size of flycuts, a good size cam as well.
You can go real fast on LSx combos with the right platform.
You can go real fast on LSx combos with the right platform.
10-21-2009, 08:27 PM
#39
My setup is carbed and as such I run a tighter LSA/ICL.
A cam can be designed for EFI using the Rapid Dominator lobes that will not require FC.
Give Mike at Rapid a call......
My car is no lighter than the fastest stock cu/in HC cars. check the list on this site, currently 5th.
The reality is that my motor is cam only. The only parts that have been changed are the cam/springs/pushrods and rod bolts.
basically a stock LY6(6.0/l92's) with cam and carb.
Dave
A cam can be designed for EFI using the Rapid Dominator lobes that will not require FC.
Give Mike at Rapid a call......
My car is no lighter than the fastest stock cu/in HC cars. check the list on this site, currently 5th.
The reality is that my motor is cam only. The only parts that have been changed are the cam/springs/pushrods and rod bolts.
basically a stock LY6(6.0/l92's) with cam and carb.
Dave
10-21-2009, 09:58 PM
#40
TECH Senior Member
Hi Dave, very strong setup indeed. But not quite cam only, a true H/C using plenty GM parts.
You heads are milled aren't they?, must be with flycuts and 9.8 SCR.
FI setup without flycuts, will not be near the size cam you have and will not yield similar power. Look at the position of your flycuts.
2900 lbs is featherweight by GM f-body standards.
Mind you i'm not criticising your setup, it proves itself, just pointing out a bit of the details. one heck of a good combination for sure with excellent results.
You heads are milled aren't they?, must be with flycuts and 9.8 SCR.
FI setup without flycuts, will not be near the size cam you have and will not yield similar power. Look at the position of your flycuts.
2900 lbs is featherweight by GM f-body standards.
Mind you i'm not criticising your setup, it proves itself, just pointing out a bit of the details. one heck of a good combination for sure with excellent results.