BlackScreaminMachine

iTrader: (17)

From my understanding LSR is a brand and the LSL is the actual Lobe type and its basically like a XE-R w/o as much lift and considered a evolution in cam shaft design. From what I have search/read at least.

Moving forward, I am doing some research about what to do next with the car, and thinking about changing the cam that is in the car or possibly heads, or a power adder. Cannot afford all but if anyone has some good input, it's much appreciated.

The car mods:

2002 T/A
F-body M6 Trans (oz700 z grip)
4.10's (may become 4.30s next year)
SLP lid
Stock MAF (not intending to change)
Ported FAST 90/90 from Vengeance
Vengeance Racing VRx4 Cam (228/230 @ 112)
Stock '02 LS1 heads
Dynatech Long Tubes w/ their catted Y pipe.
Corsa Cat-Back.

Car recently dyno tuned made....

Initially made 370 rwhp and with tune got it up to 383 RWHP and 363 TQ, hits 350 tq @ 3,500 and stays flat and the cam tops out to 6,500. A/F was 12.8 @ peak hp 13.0 on ave.

That is low considering the cam, I have seen some make 400-410 which is a good amount off. There had been a conversation between me and a fellow mod on the intake manifold. I had gotten the 90/90, and had it ported in anticipation of ported heads but funds held that up and if I had my way, it would have been done all the same time. I have not taken it apart to compare ports but I suspect they are larger then of course stock heads (turbulence). We might swap back a LS6 to see if power changes, or improves. If so I might just go back. Buy a intake when I go 400+ cubes.

Also I might take off the cats but in some hotrod article, they showed a Dynatech cats on a stock 6.0L showing barely a 1 hp loss but again, the cats could be degrading. So I think I will throw on CAT deletes.

If power is relatively the same, I might look at a bigger cam, and the LSL lobes seem to be the hot ticket.

My main question is, who is running these cams w/o fly cutting or changing heads? What size and what power your making, Who is selling them? Was it worth it to you? Also what sponsors are selling these grinds

I could just buy a nitrous kit but I'd like to have the car running strong and if I throw on the bottle, use less of a shot, or should I just start looking for heads and have them matched to the intake to make full use.

So please excuse the long post, any insight is appreciated.

WSsick

iTrader: (13)

kinda confused me here. are you looking for ideas on how to make more power from just a cam swap, or are you open to something else? if you are open, id say get some new heads. a cam swap would not be worth enough if you are staying stock heads and still having that big open FAST. if you are wanting to swap a cam, thats ~$400 so you can definitely get some stock 243's in the for sale section that would benefit you alot more than a cam. hell, theres even been some ported 243's in the FS section for not too much coin. your numbers will go up alot more with heads, since you already have the FAST, and that cam is pretty healthy.

BlackScreaminMachine

iTrader: (17)

Well that is the conundrum.

I picked a cam as street manners was persay a consideration. Since it got some good driveability tuning put into it, it can def use some more.

Its not just peak power, its over all power and for this car even in a 346 form, it can def be making more and I am prepared to go more radical. I am providing all info to give a proper back ground.

Considering the year of the car 2002 (which seems to be the best year to make power and that based on some major speed shop's opnions) that this one is off, the FAST could be causing that issue for which I will have to borrow a LS6 to try out and see.

If the car gets heads, they will be ported BUT why put the $$$ in small bore head when I do go bigger cube, there are a ton more options and the small bore heads are hard to sell and get $$ back on. Those will be over 1k.

A cam swap is about $700 as well.....

Cam- 400ish
Timing Chain (still on stock, assuming a LS2)
Oil pump (stock, 44k)
Springs (comp 918's will prob go Patriot Duals w/ Ti retainers
Gaskets/Fluids if needed
at least 1 hr dyno time which is 125$


Or put together a cheap kit which can make 100-150 hp.

All options are on the table but if I went up in cam, the LSL seem to be the best one to go for.

WSsick

iTrader: (13)

i was assuming you already did the timing chain, oil pump, springs and whatnot. what is your plan for a bigger cube motor? still using the LS1/LS6 block, or going to a 6.0 block for a 402,408, etc.? if you are going to use the same block and go 383, then some big $$ are in order, since you said you are ready to go radical. plenty of power can be had with your cam. but if you are going to a bigger cube motor (talking 400+) then take advantage of the bigger bore and use L92's if going cheap or AFR, TFS, etc. and if you are going 400+, dont bother with the current car going to radical. just put that money into the new motor. if you really want to maximize this combo, slap some AFR's on it and make 450+

hammertime

iTrader: (1)

What is your ultimate goal, and how is this car used? Going bigger on the cam might be cheaper, but don't expect to pick up "all over power" with a bigger cam. You'll gain power over 5,000 RPM's at the expense of some power and throttle response below that. Probably not the best direction to go in a street car.

A couple of things are hurting your dyno numbers - the cat's and the 4.10's probably cost you about 10-12rwhp. Additionally, you need some compression to really make the most of this mid-size cam with a 112* LSA. What is the ICL as installed now?

I would have thought the ported FAST would help more, but I suppose only if the heads can flow the extra CFM. I agree with the above post that heads will put you where you want to be. Match that intake with some AFR 205's milled to get your Dynamic Compression Ratio above 8.5:1, then you'll really see what this combo can do.

4.30's are overkill unless this is a drag car. Before you go spending the money on a cam, gears (and labor to install them) and inexpensive heads; pool those resources and see what you can do with a good aftermarket head. Those stock LS1 heads just stand out as the only really mis-matched part right now. I don't think WSsick is far off at 450rwhp. That might sound like a huge jump from 383, but properly prepped and installed for the application, you'll address the sub-par DCR and remove a major restriction at the same time.

Later, if you do decide to build a 383 to 408 sized engine, a quality head like the AFR 205 will still move plenty of air and make great power. See some of Tony Mamo's dyno threads for results.

BlackScreaminMachine

iTrader: (17)

Let me clarify again, the car is a street car that set up to go straight line.

It is running almost full suspension. I just put a UMI drag bar on the rear, R-Series front shocks from QA1 and has 12 wasy on the back. The car is heavy and needs the gear. I am not blowing 1600.00 on a M12 GTO trans. The tru tac in it is garbage so it is getting most likely a spool as the diff is locked like one now anyways.

I have built big cube LT1 stuff and I know what it takes. I do not have that kind of cash and the milage is low enough it is fine.

My current goal is to maximize the 346, as heads are a thought but does not mean they are out. The VRx4 on a stock head, stock cube, stock C/R 346 makes about 405 and it had 4.10's and a 12 bolt.

Like said, all insight is appreciated, still looking for opinions on the LSL lobe design.

I neve rhave ultimate goals, I have goals of the moment and depending on how far I want to take the 346 will be my decision.

quick346

iTrader: (4)

I run a lsl lobed cam and love it. it has wicked mid to top rpm pull.

i also run 11.8 scr,and all the stuff in my sig.

I wish i would have gone bigger. i can pull mine this winter and sell it to you if you want it. has less than a 1000 miles on it i would like to go a little bigger. cam specs in sig

hammertime

iTrader: (1)

So it's a street car, setup like a drag car...gotcha.
Full drag suspension and possiblity of switching to a spool, sounds more like a drag car...

Ok, I apologize for having some fun with the replys, no flame intended here. That said, it seems you are trying to hit a moving target.

On the LSL lobes....they have more lift than XE-R lobes, but less than LSK lobes. The numbers below are as follows, duration a .050" (LSL's are 1* smaller than the others), and respective durations at .200"
data from the thread LSL Lobes (LOL lobes)

There is not a major difference between the XE-R and the LSL family. Between similar grinds with only the lobes differing, you will probably not see any more than 3-5hp difference, almost outside the range of repeatability. If you are going to go for a larger cam anyway, and you are willing to put the attention to detail into using the higher lift lobes, there is no reason not to. If you don't make any major changes in Valve Events, spend your money elsewhere, as the only way you would see a worthwhile improvment is if your current cam is ground, or at least installed incorrectly.

My personal opinion - you will get better results selecting a cylinder head to optimise your current combination.

Best of luck!

BlackScreaminMachine

iTrader: (17)

I did not post this but this is what the car has done.

https://ls1tech.com/forums/eastern-m...ay-new-pb.html

I actually followed through and got on all the needed parts for the car.

I think more then anything is funding and that is the main issue, so would I like to put a 440 in there? Sure, can I do it now, and do it right? No.

The 346 is quite healthy, low milage and I want to play with it. The race weight and my weight need to come down a good amount and that alone should get it near 12.0x With doing nothing else. Like said, all items are on the table.

Cam upgrade
Heads
Power adder (Nitrous)

This car may never get a cage, so going over the top may not be needed and I think on motor alone I can easily do that so. I definitly agree getting the compression bump will be helpful as well as improving DCR.

I have been trolling through classifieds and there are some good ported stock LS6 type castings.

Thank you all for the help, its very appreciated.

BlackScreaminMachine

iTrader: (17)

You know what. I have seen cars make great Cam only power to put heads on, and not really make a big jump and I have seen low cam only cars put heads on and look like a hero.

I suspect I am the latter.

If I get a set, hopefully they can be matched to the intake w/o much difficulty.

-Thanks!

Kaltech Tuning

iTrader: (17)

Before anything else make sure the car is in good running order. You need to find out why it's down on power, just throwing parts at a setup that has isn't isn't going to solve anything. You said you think the fast is your problem so you need to verify that but I'd be surprised if it since unless someone absolutely hogged the **** out of it. I've seen fasts pickup on stock ls1's.

This statement is useless since you haven't provided goals for now or later. Are you trying to make this a 12.00 car, 11.80, 11.50, 11.00?

This should be motivation to get the car right and running what it should rather than worrying about pulling wheels on crap 60 fts. It looks like you're starting to get your suspension parts in line but we still need goals for either power or et/mph to help you with the power side of things.

That's because of poorly thought out combinations and buying parts out of the "internet flavor of the week" catalog. Anyone here can give you a laundry list of parts to throw at your car but it doesn't mean they'll make you happy and all that advice will be useless until we know what we're working towards. If you don't know what you want the car to run then maybe we need to look at it from a budget point of view, which sounds like it may be your biggest constraint anyways. If so then determine a budget for this car and we can back into a combination based on that to maximize the money you have to spend.

BlackScreaminMachine

iTrader: (17)

I never have had "goals", and frankly I'm not starting now. Regardless of your opinion on that subject, that is my decision to decide when to stop. All parts purchased can be used on the project and does not need to be repurchased. Every component.

I take every individual success as I achieve them, yes the 60 foot is per say crap compared to other cars but considering what the car was doing and the drastic improvement, that was last year. I could not go forward until certain parts were purchased and all parts purchased have been used successfully on cars that are well into the 9's

I am providing as much info as possible and possible suspicions on other parts. The FAST maybe sold to help finance the rebuying of a LS6 intake and a cam swap to something more radical. Which should about cover that and that at this point the FAST is seemingly overkill.

When the car runs fast enough to need a cage, then I will evaluate if the car is going further, I may want more, I may want to stop at least caring about going to the track.

IF I were to say what the next "Goal" is per say.....

-Run Fast enough to meet the 5/6 pt cage requirement 11.49 or faster.
-To cut a better 60 foot to help improve ET and avoid suspension unloading.
-Keep the car streetable/enjoyable until either purchase of another "street" car or stop caring about 1/4mi ET's all together.

** Anyone who understand Ultimate goals knows that there are individual successes that one acheives along the way and if the funds were avalible I'd have a track only car and a street car. But I don't so take that for what you will.

** as for budget its going to be 900-1200$ max. I'll spend a little more if a great set of heads can come my way. All depends. All used heads would get new springs and have them check/clean so I would factor that in as well.

Kaltech Tuning

iTrader: (17)

Well then to answer your original question lsl lobes aren't drastically different than xer and a cam change at this point over to lsls in similar duration won't be at all worth the time and money, but that's already been stated above. There's no special lobe that's sprinkled with magic pixie dust to make power. Cam selection is all about creating a heads, cam, intake, and exhaust package for your motor and goals, but considering your pov on goals I'll stop there.

When you answer tech questions posted by others are you simply answering questions or are you trying to provide good advice??


Ok, now that's something to work with. You're addressing the suspension with parts which is a good step so now the next step is to figure out how to make them do what they're supposed to and drop that 60 ft. Now we need to get you some more power and find your currently missing power to get you to cage territory. Again, spend some time and money diagnosing where your current power is being lost. A cam swap may not be necessary if you find the ~20hp your car is currently missing.

That's because people pick one or two areas of focus and maximize those areas on their way to the overall goal. You'd ultimately like the car to be a track car but that's not in the budget so getting the most out of a car on a given budget is a goal.

I don't know if that includes labor or not in which case that would make a big difference. Regardless I think your car needs to be looked over for other issues and see if you have something restricting your setup or if your car is just weaker than others in terms of power production.
A cam swap retaining generic lobes and specs (xer, lsl, xfi, lsk) will probably require 8 - 10 degrees more duration to make a substantial gain in power on stock heads and that's only if they're spec'd properly anyways.

BlackScreaminMachine

iTrader: (17)

^
BTW I do appreciate the info provided as Technology used on LSX stuff has improved dramatically over the 10 years of the motor's exsistence. To the point where it is honestly best to build a motor last and stick it into the Chassis Spec of your choice. LSL lobes came out and I would figure to give it a shot.

I do almost all my own labor, I am very used to it. The only thing I pretty much don't do is tuning, welding, and setting up gear ratios. But if I did it enough, I'd get the tools and learn. I would not be afraid to set up my own springs and making sure the installed height is done correctly.

I may have access to a LS6 intake and a Dyno and I may check out to see if the intake is a restriction. If it makes same/similar power then I know I do not need it and I can sell it to someone who can utilize it better and my father in law has a standing offer to re do the exhuast which I may take him up on anyways. Have the exhaust guy make CAT deletes since I have emission and it needs to be on there at the time, but I can delete when I drive her normal.

Those are the 2 potential restriction above cyl heads.

^All great stuff.