2001CamaroGuy

iTrader: (6)

pep boys

jrp

iTrader: (16)

another thing to do is pick up an old 350 somewhere and tinker with that, tear it down, put it back together, see how things work. thats where to start or at least get a simple and basic understanding of engine building. better to start on something thats not going into your daily driver in which you need reliability.

Sleepy383SS

That’s a very good suggestion, the first motor I ever built/rebuilt, was off a 92 fzr600. A motorcycle engine is also a great place to start because it is small and easy to manipulate, not to mention you could pick one up very cheap. Reading about it and actually doing it are totally different things. There are some differences between most bike motors and LS1’s but the basics are all there. I would definitely not use my LS1 as a Guinn pig, but sometimes fuc@ing up is the best way to really learn a lesson.

UGotBeaT

yeh thats a good example Im about to rebuild a 350 Ive seen it done and helped here and there with it and really nothin hard about it. Only thing im worried about is the reluctor wheel whats that do?

Sleepy383SS

Reluct, LOL

C_Williams

clearences are tighter on the LS1 than previus gen II stuff, so good equipment and measuring tools are a must. Beyond that, it's the sames any technical assembly, i.e.; measure, test, assemble, check, record readings, etc.

Country Boy

iTrader: (24)

It tells the computer the posistion of the crank. It welded to the crank and you dont do anything with it, just dont bend it

Bink

Country Boy - Your sig pic is excellent. It Looks warm! Ice, snow and in the teens here. Oh....., sorry, back on topic.
joel

Country Boy

iTrader: (24)

Its cold here too... its in the 60s

Reckless

iTrader: (9)

This is by no means an add, but when I build bottom ends for friends, I show them all reciepts that I pay for parts and machining, and ask $500 above that for my effort. There is nothing hidden. I get the best deal I can on parts, and machine work varies depending on the application and shape of the block.

I am building a few motors for friends, but don't plan on making this anythign more than a hobby at this point. My first motor has been going strong in a forced induction car and has run 10.49 with a slipping belt (348 cid). The motor I just built for my car was a 364 (6.0L) and ran 11.0 @ 122 on the motor. No issues yet

Now, for the reality check. I was coached extensively through phone converstions and emails with Nick Agostino. Nick and Barry from ARE were helpful to me (at that time). I had some up and downs and that first motor was rebuilt a few times, but I learned along the way. I assumed the risk and assumed there would be issues, but I wanted to learn. Since I was in Hawaii at the time, I thought it was a good idea rather than shipping motors back and forth.

racer7088

Well, I'll add my two cents here as well since I actually do this for a living and also teach it in the morning at the School of Automotive Machinists here in Houston, Texas. We've built and repaired all kinds of LS1 and LS1 mishaps from other shops so I've almost seen it all. These range from slower low 11 second deals to mid 9 second motors that are NA and have had boost or NOS on them.

I am also starting a shop right now as well which will be up and running in the next 6 weeks or so here in Houston too so I do have a somewhat vested interest in this as well. It is with Charles Anders whom many of you know as well so I just wanted to get that out on the table right now. We should be doing a lot of LSx stuff and already have a lot of these engines going as I speak. It is called Horsepower Engineering right now unless we see the need to change it in the near future.

My advice to anyone not familiar with assembling an engine is to have a reputable accountable source assemble it. Anyone on this board can tell you how to do it but there isn't anyone on this board that has assembled more than a handful of engines and most are very nearly stock and how many are going to foot the bill if you spin some bearings or bend a bunch of valves after they help you? This isn't to say that there aren't some very competent guys on the board that could do it because there are but how will you know who is and who isn't really qualified? I teach people like this everyday and I know very well the average bulletin board knowledge level. I've personally had to redo several guys stuff from this very board that had elemnetary problems going together that are not going to be found by a hobbyist and it cost some of these guys thousands in the aftermath so just keep that in mind.

The less radical or different your project is, the better a chance you have of avoiding any problems but if you are doing a stroker or any custom or larger cams or pistons or strange rings etc. you will probably not understand some of what can go wrong. How many people can even check P to V that will help you do this? Or bearing clearance? Or know how to set up valvetrain correctly?

You can get away with murder on your normal stock type hydraulic roller stuff but just be extremely careful letting anyone advise you that hasn't seen a lot of hard core stuff if that's what you're into. I know your particular combination sounds very mild but with different pistons and rods you can already run into some problems and you dont really want that on your first engine!

We may do an engine assembly workshop or seminar at one of our open houses for you guys that like doing your own assembly because I know people love to see this stuff and it would also educate quite a few guys on how many things are found and must be corrected at assembly time for instance just on the stuff we do normally on any engine whether it is a SBC or SBF or the newer LSx engines.

Reckless

iTrader: (9)

Good points Erik. I strictly stay with bottom ends for the most part. I do not delve into any of the aftermarket stuff when it comes to valvetrain. I stick with off the shelf cams and stock rockers. Stuff I know works and do not add complications to the setup. Any time you add variables, you increase the risk of failure. I strictly stick to "KISS".

Spinmonster

If you are doing it to save money-don't. If you are doing it to learn how, then proceed with some coaching. Everyone has to have a first engine. This is a very expensive platform from which to learn though. Will be cheaper to buy an old mustang to work on if the hobby is your end goal. If this is just a one shot deal, get a warranty from a builder.

99 Black Bird T/A

iTrader: (4)

Racer7088,

I think a workshop on this would be fantastic and a great learning opportunity for most of us that would like to learn how to do this stuff for LSx motors.

Country Boy

iTrader: (24)

Point is, do it if your confident, if not, then let a pro do it as it can cost you alot of money. To me, its as easy as cake... all of it. To me, its nothing but nuts and bolts, but Ive worked on cars since I was like 5 and played with everything

2001CamaroGuy

iTrader: (6)

same here...though at 5 I was into hot roding RC cars (oh believe me.....my dad and I made some FAST cars )...didn't get into real cars till I was ~11

onyxxtreme

iTrader: (4)

as I stated before, 8-1200 for ASSEMBLY, not including the machine work.
I wound up getting a buddy of mine at a caddy dealership to assemble it for $400. Much better

Slowverado

i'm in the same delima...i can't decide if i want to have someone assemble my new motor, or do it myself it would be my first complete rebuild including bearings and everything. i just need more info.

mbaskett

Having done many LS1's (from stock rebuilds to 9 second nitrous motors), I have a couple of pointers and suggestions, as well as price breakdowns.

First rule of building and engine: Cleanliness is godliness. If you assemble a motor with any kind of dust, lint, grit, anything... the first thing it's going to do when you first start the motor up is run through everything. It'll wreak hovoc on bearings and the oil pump. Everything should be pristene clean when you put it together, and you need to make sure it's all properly oiled/lubed. The regular rags and paper towels you use in your garage arent' going to cut it. They leave FAR too much lint behind. While lint doesn't do a whole lot of damage to the internal parts, it tends to clog the pickup tube. You'll want to use something that is lint-free. I've used lint free towels/rags and lint free paper towels, and don't really have a preference. The cloth towels are nice, because they can be cleaned and used again, but the paper ones are disposable, so if this is your only build, then I'd suggest going with paper. Just remember that while the motor will have an oil filter on it, anything inside the motor during assembly will reach the filter LAST. After your done with your work each day, cover the shortblock with a large plastic bag and seal it up real good. This will keep any dust in the air from getting inside, as well as keep out god knows what might be buzzing around in your shop/garage.

The second rule: Check, doublecheck, and then go back again and check again.... when it comes to tolerances. This includes main bearings, cylinder bore (and roundness), rod bearings, all bolt torque specs, ring gaps, etc. Pretty much EVERYTHING has a tolerance to it, so check it all at LEAST 3 times before proceeding. If you can't get something right tolerance-wise, then you'll need to have that part re-machined properly.

Experience is very helpful, and can help you with confidence, and also pay off in the long run, so if this is your first build, and it's YOUR motor, then recruit a friend or two that have done build (the right way) to help you out and watch over your shoulder. Not to knock anyone, but make sure they know what they are doing, because they will be there to keep you from making mistakes. I've seen ALOT of guys say they build motors and find out they just hose the parts down, slap them back together and lo and behold, their motor is having problems as early as 1000 miles down the road (I've seen some last 30k, but no more than that)

Take your time. Don't rush ANYTHING. If you are in a hurry, you're going to miss something. Even guys that do this professionally take their time. I personally like to allocate a full week into putting shortblock together assuming that everything is perfect. Usually that's delayed because you find that one rod needs to be resized, or something needs to go off to the machine shop for something. Keep in mind that the Gen III motors while they call for very tight tolerances, the factory inherently has a lot of slop in the tolerance variances of parts, so keep that in mind. The majority of the blocks I've seen are out of (what I consider) spec on something. Usually it's cylinder bore roundness, or the deck is off just a bit.



Now, as for costs (I hope this is fairly complete):

Maching (these are just averages. Prices DO vary from shop to shop):
150 - deck the block
50 - cylinder hone
150 - align hone (usually this is good, but there are cases where it needs to be done)
100 - cam bearings (that's parts AND labor)
50 - vat (iron) or steam (aluminum) cleaning
?? - magnaflux for cracks (I do this in house, so I don't know what a shop charges)
200 - balance rotating assembly (can be MUCH more if they have to add mallory to the crank)

Tools:
50 - Piston ring filer
70 - Rod bolt stretch gauge
?? - feeler gauges (dunno how much they cost nowadays, my set was passed down from my father, and I haven't had a need to purchase new ones)
200 - inner and outter micrometer set
100 - various attachments for micrometer (for measuring piston height to deck, etc)
50 - piston ring expander and piston ring compressor
10 - assembly lube
20 - deadblow hammer

Now, those tools prices are on the high side, so don't let me scare you away with that. Plastigauge can replace the inner and outter micrometer set for measuring the crank and rod bearing tolerances, and it's virtually free from your local auto store (Autozone) Usually it's like $1 per stick and two sticks should easily do 1 motor build. Sometimes if you ask nicely, they'll give it to you for free too . It cannot, however, replace checking the cylinder bore and out of roundness, although most machine shops will check this if they are doing a hone/bore). You can also "skimp" on the piston ring expander and compressor if you pick up the expander from Sears (not the best tool in the world but if you're careful, it'll get the job done) and the compressor from Autozone or Pep boys. Again, they aren't the BEST tools, but if you're on a budget (aren't we all ) these are the ones I'd save some $$$ on. Also, those friends that should be helping you *should* have most of these tools available to them, so ask if they'll let you borrow them.

If I've missed something, please jump in and let me know. It's 3:30 am here and I've been playing with chemicals all day so I'm a bit out of it right now. I hope I got most of it, though.

Don't be afraid to build it yourself. Just be aware of all the little things that go into the build of a shortblock, and if in doubt.... ASK QUESTIONS!

A couple of pointers that I've picked up over the years....
1. Somtimes the best machine shop is not the big shop. I've had much better success from the 1-man machinist that takes his good sweet time. They guy I'm using now is slower then mollassas during a russian winter, but EVERYTHING that he does has been 100% absolutely perfect.
2. When it comes to the tools, the most expensive ones aren't usually any better than the middle of the line ones (as long as they can measure the correct increments. A rod bolt stretch gauge doesn't do any good if it's smallest increment is .01). Usually most tools will measure .001, and some even smaller. .001 is probably the smallest increment that you'll need, so there's no need to spend more $$ just to read less than that. Don't be afraid if was made in indonesia and doesn't come in a hand carved wood case. They will work just as well, and will provide you with years of reliable service if you take proper care of them.
3. Just because the parts are made of metal, doesn't mean they can withstand bumps or being droped. Treat EVERY part as if it's made of the thinnest glass. You'd be amazed of how tiny a little bump to a rod will send it out of spec.... and a trip back to the machine shop.


Good luck with your build! I hope you enjoy doing it, and that it provides you will many track passes of abuse!!!

Matt Baskett

Billiumss

iTrader: (11)

Matt,

I saved and printed your reply.

I will be building my first short block in about 1 year. I have been doing research for a while now and I know a guy in Dayton that I can call if I get into a snag...

Bill