I'll sell you a set of ported heads with some stock valves, stock springs and retainers for $500. Of course I won't guarantee you big power gains but hey it's ported head right?

I got the whole industry beat now, people will be banging down my doors for these things cause I can put these out cheaper than anyone else!

I can hear my new customers now. Who needs $2500 heads! Sure your $2500 headed car is a whole second faster than mine, but I only paid $500 for my heads.

Ok Sorry, not to be a smartass, but really there are alot of things to consider here.

Man hours- How many guys do you think they have on this project. I'm sure they don't make minimum wage either.

Tooling- Holy smokes, how much do you think this will cost! Yeah 100k is nothing if you plan to put out 1 million sets of heads like GM but lets say you only project to sell 25k of them. Man that tooling just got freaking expenisive as hell in the whole scheme of things.

Materials/Parts- The more you buy, the cheaper it gets. Considering we are using top notch/quality parts and be expected to perform at a higher level this brings up the price of the parts like springs/valves etc.

R+D- I'm certain these guys didn't hand draw a set of heads with a pencil and go from there. They had an original plan with plenty of man hours and design go into it...doesn't stop there because the initial plans will have flaws to correct. Add more to the man hours involved.

Warranty issues- Hey they could sell it cheap if no one returned anything broken, but then again it too is put into the total cost.

I guess with that said, AFR sells plenty of heads that are much more money than ported stock castings in several fields. Why? Someone is buying them. If they didn't, they would have been gone a long time ago and wouldn't have the resources to even consider a LS1 casting.

 

You REALLY need to take the time and found out who Ed Curtis is. That goes for a few people on the board. Maybe you don't like what he has to say but it is the truth. His specialty ARE AFR heads! Just go on the corral and do a search for Ed Curtis/FTI/Flowtechinduction and you'll see countless posts of customers who have purchased a set of his heads and custom grinds who are EXTREMELY happy with his work and service and most importantly the track results. His is more qualified than pretty much anybody on this board to speak about AFR. He's got a leg up on a lot of the sponsors of this board when it comes to achievements especially in professional racing!

The $2000-$3K that was being charged for a set of CNC ported stockers a couple years back, NOW THATS BULLSHIT!!!

IMO its kinda hard to make a judgment on the price when there are no dyno #'s or track times at this point.

 

Hmmmm... Not nice??? Come on...you should talk???

If you care to remember, you accused me of doing "poor work" on a set heads for a member named Vince that I repeatedly told you I did not do! You continued to flame and tell people that I did this "shoddy work" even when PSJ and others here told you it was not me... Not nice..

Now, here again you speak out of turn about AFR products that you have no information nor experience with, and use the "opinion" clause to justify it? Again.. not nice...

What would you think if I made up an "opinion" thread about you? Say... well, that you are one of Michael Jackson's gay lovers! As long as I quantified that thread with a disclaimer at the top stating it is "idle speculation" I'd be OK with you??? Let's be real now....this ain't the National Equirer...

OK.. What company does "X" own or work for, that manufactures aftermarket, one of a kind, specialty automotive products? Is he a cost estimator for this company? Is he the controller? He programs a few CNC machines and works for an OEM supplier, so that automatically makes him a production cost expert on "another" company's product line? Did he stay at a Holiday Inn Express or something?

The cost of any product, labor or component, is dictated by the manufacturer using the systems they have in place and the methods "they" prefer in order to maintain a profitable bottomline. I do have some knowledge in that field, whether you believe me or not.

As for my experience with CNC equipment, as a twice degreed mechanical engineer, I've had many people working for me that did just that. I designed the parts and machines on Pro-E solid modeling software and used SmartCam or other interfaces to manufacture them. I also quoted, designed, built and installed automation equipment and workcells for Toyota, Chrysler, Ford and GM and was project leader for many multi-million dollar workcells. But I guess that experience is overshadowed by that of a CNC operator huh!

I see you are a member of the TEA inner circle with that comment... What do you need, the serial number off the SF600 for proof??? Sorry, that's an old joke that never was relavent to anything... BTW... Tell Brian it's available at any time for him to use... $250 per hour..

Boy ain't that the truth. Crap! We agree on something? The world is going to end!

If you ( or "X") wants to pay for the better product, that's fine, but for this "so-called expert" to say the price is "Gouging or inefficiency, take your pick."... well I want to know where his "expertise" comes from...

So bottomline... if you want steak, you pay for steak. If you like chuck roast, you pay for chuck roast... Not too hard to figure out!

Ed

 

Get a GP going so I can buy these bad boyz

 

Those AFR's better be damn good.

 

Well I spoke with Rick today, the owner of AFR. I was checking on the status of some parts I had sent for the LS1 project that they need to approve before we start. His hold up is his pattern man on some modifications they are doing to the casting boxes. So as with our business it is not AFR that is dragging it is the many outside suppliers that you have to have to make a project like this happen.

Chris

 

Well, pinhead, I happen to run a $110,000,000/yr business unit for a multi-billion dollar/yr Tier 1 automotive supplier. We do powertrain, chassis and body components, and engineer complete vehicle platforms for the OEM's.

In the last two weeks I quoted more business than AFR will do in the next ten years.

My credentials?

Associate's of Science of Engineering Techonology
Bachelor's of Science - Mechanical Engineering
Master's in Business Administration
15 years of Tier 1 Automotive design, engineering, manufacturing and program management experience.

I can calculate manufacturing cost on that head complete +/-5% and send that information to Edelbrock if you'd like, but methinks my cost estimators would rather not waste time playing in the aftermarket bush leagues.

Cost pressure? You wouldn't know cost pressure if it bit you on the rump. One of the OEM's demanded a 10% reduction across the board from us this year... and we got it to them AND increased the EBIT on a percentage basis. Explain costs to someone else.

Now, I stand by my statement. They're overpriced relative to the market, and you can blather on until you're blue in the face about "steak" and "hamburger", but true product excellence is exceeding the competition's performance at a LOWER price. Any moron can make a Rolex, the smart guys work at Timex.

Once they prove them out on a 100,000 mile durability cycle you can talk about "quality" you unmitigated buffoon.

PS - I can afford any head I want.

 

You have, and they barely outflowed an overported (231cc), misapplied (S3 large valve head on a 3.910 bore), and poor flowing "S3" head. (If it will further your cause, I have a set of 250cc heads that flow mid 200s cfm that my 92 year old Grandmother ported that you are free to flowtest and compare to the AFRs to validate them...) Comparing a CNC ported aftermarket head to a misapplied, inferior, poorly ported production cylinder head is "bull dung", IMO.


I see you are a member of the AFR "inner circle". Do you own a shop that directly benefits from the success/failure of the new AFR heads? Why get so defensive about peoples opinions? Why not let the AFR heads speak for themselves when they "destroy all comers"?


You're kidding, right?


Shawn

 

There is nothing else to compare them to!!

 

You mean other than a good flowing, non hogged out head that does not have valves too big for the bore size it is being tested on, and that flows worse than an "average" S2 head does?

Shawn

 

Wow... Ouch... "pinhead"... Hmmmm....

I guess I "might" have been impressed with your position on manufacturing costs and processes, but any shred of credability went out the window when you start your rebutal with a personal insult! This is a sure sign of desperation in an argument or didn't you learn this from 15 years in manufacturing and management training?

Since I neither know what AFR's forecasts are for the next ten years (and might I add, neither do you), I can't comment on the facts and figures of your comment... But then again, I wouldn't make such a false presumption of the facts...

Very impressive indeed. I am very confident in your opinions on "your" type of business. Maybe not Edelbrock's or AFR's but in your realm you must do well...

Again with the insults. "Aftermarket bush leagues?" Not very convincing of your proper management skills or your position... If you are so in touch with the "big Leagues" of the automobile industry, may I ask, why then do you even care how much a product from this "bush league" marketplace even costs? Why comment at all, since you claim they are not in your league?

More assumption on your part... You have no idea of what I did or my responsibilities in industry before I retired from the insanity...

And if your company agreed to this price reduction, and still made a reasonable profit, who's really overpriced their products then?

Yup... That's called VALUE.... And if it costs more to provide a better product or "widget", so be it. Especially if there a people ready to purchase the "widget"...

Again, more insults. Are you saying Rolex is a product manufactured by morons? Tell you what, I'd rather be selling or manufacturing Rolex than Timex... Maybe it's a pride or ego thing, but it's my thinking...

Even more insults! Did you flunk out of a management training class? Do you run someone's bizzilion dollar company with these kinds of people skills? You have a crop of potential employees right here to interview that agree with your philosopy! Suffice to say, I hope upper management is not paying a lot for your "non-engineering" talents...

As for any 100K endurance tests, I've seen a lot of OEM pieces fail even with all the testing in the world done on them. Like the proverbial saying, **** happens... To OEM products too...but you know that...

Me too.... But I also have to invest in what works, presents the best value for my end users and what I've had the most success with. I don't shop price only. Makes for a better customer service program that way...

Pleasure BS'ing with you...

Ed

 

How 'bout those Patriots....

 

Wow, you finally got a flowbench to go with your two workbenches in your one bay garage??? I don't need the serial number, a picture to prove it might be nice, go ahead and include a copy of those degrees you spoke of, I would like to see those as well.

So congrats on your new acquisition, but why would I want to use your Stupidflow bench, when I have the only flowbench made that is traceable to the National Bureau of Standards??

Did you manage a class champ in 03' or not, I haven't kept up with it. I know its pales in comparasion to the 12 class champions we have had in the last 2 years.

How is it that you are viewed as such a expert, when in reality you are just a sad little man in a one bay garage trying to be a big shot in a big world??

BTW, did you get my phone call or e-mail?? I am ready anytime you are!

 

I look foward to the end result of AFR heads. All the above posts mean very little.

The end result will dictate whether we buy the heads or not..

Nothing else.

Not the slamming of people or products..or protecting of people who support the concepts and efforts of AFR..

Just my two cents.

Like I said..lots of people are looking foward to seeing the end results.

Thanks

JB

 

Ed,

You wouldn't be impressed by anyone's credentials - you're too busy trying to get your ego stroked. Second, I don't need advice on social skills from you in an internet argument or anything else.

Concerning quotes:
We/I quoted (I approve all quoting activities for my business unit, obviously) $710,000,000 in new business in the last two weeks. Think AFR is pushing $71,000,000/yr out the door every year? I think not...

From an AFR article in MMS (Modern Machine Shop - 9/11/01):
"Air Flow uses a Haas five-axis HS1R horizontal machining center (HMC) to machine the cylinder heads, and for full five-axis porting work. They also have a Millac 2 three-axis (manual fourth and fifth) HMC, a Mori Seiki Mv35/40 four-axis (manual fifth) vertical machining center (VMC), and a Fadal 6030 five-axis VMC."

Hmmm... who else has a Haas HS1?

Furthermore, AFR machines their own casting tooling for their foundry. The cores are expendable and cost as much as the CNC time, the labor, and the material to make them.

That being said, I have no issue with AFR as a company. I think these heads are overpriced, I think they're expecting a premium out of the market, and lots of folks here are apparently happy to pay this premium.

I'm not until someone comes up with a ROCK-SOLID case for the money actually buying me something.



"Yup... That's called VALUE.... And if it costs more to provide a better product or "widget", so be it. Especially if there a people ready to purchase the "widget"..."

Wrong. A better "value" is a BETTER product at a LOWER price. Any knucklehead can make something more expensive. I would also advise some caution here relative to pricing as the General is not sitting on their hands with cylinder head design.



"Again, more insults. Are you saying Rolex is a product manufactured by morons? Tell you what, I'd rather be selling or manufacturing Rolex than Timex... Maybe it's a pride or ego thing, but it's my thinking..."

Solving a problem by throwing money at it is not good engineering. Good engineering is solving a problem with the LEAST expensive solution. As the Timex engineer is under much greater cost pressure, his solutions have to be far more elegant from an engineering standpoint. The morons at Rolex just keep throwing money at the problem.

This is the main reason why Corvette is the pinnacle of volume production performance vehicle engineering. Yeah, Ferrari's are fast... but Corvettes are fast too - for 1/4 the price.


"Did you flunk out of a management training class? Do you run someone's bizzilion dollar company with these kinds of people skills? You have a crop of potential employees right here to interview that agree with your philosopy! Suffice to say, I hope upper management is not paying a lot for your "non-engineering" talents..."

A hallmark trait of successful people in my industry is not suffering fools, and I will remind you that you started this pi$$ing match with:

'What credentials do you have in the manufacturing field, other than your obvious lack of knowledge,'


"As for any 100K endurance tests, I've seen a lot of OEM pieces fail even with all the testing in the world done on them."

Welp, let's make it easy then.

How about a 3 year/36,000 mile warranty which includes parts and labor for replacement, including consequential damages?

Let's see just how good ya really are. Anybody in the aftermarket care to step up to the plate with that one?


PS - The magic in reduction your price 10% in a single year is not that it was overpriced in the first place - the parts were all competitively quoted before they were sourced. The magic is finding the engineering and manufacturing improvements that make a 10% reduction possible on a component that was already cut to the quick.

 

Ed,

If you really want to hash into old stuff from last year at least try to get the story correct instead of your self deluded revisionist history.

In another thread Brent commented on the AFR's you flew off the handle at Brent & TEA attack without facts or proof in a very slanderous/libel NON-PROFESSIONAL troll like manner. I blasted you back in a similar manner and gave you some of YOUR OWN MEDICINE.

We exchanged a few harsh PM's on the subject which the summary of was this: I challenged you via PM and in public forum to send me one of your ported stock casting LS1 heads to flow on the same bench my 1.5 year old TEA's were flowed on. I said I would post the results - either way.

You NEVER responded to the challenged and I basically told you to PUT up to SHUT up because you were blasting away without presenting any evidence.

You were attacking a board sponsor that your directly "attempt" to compete with for business. I recall PSJ's comments your Flow Tech was different from the one I refered too. However, I don't think PSJ condoned your bash w/o any evidence on TEA.

I also told you as I'm telling you again. I will publically apologize for any comment I made in the threads/PM's you referenced IF AND ONLY IF you likewise PUBLICALLY apologize for your unjustifed bashing of TEA. You NEVER presented any facts to back your claims up at that time.

I also stated if you were game for it I'd flow test one of your stock ported casting LSx family heads and compare it to my old TEA's and old JPR's and post the results accordingly.

Regardless of whatever your rep in the 5.0 world is: You didn't have the nerve to step up to the plate/flow bench. You didn't present any objective evidence to back up your claims either about TEA's heads. Since your supposed to be a businessman doing this stuff for a living it's pretty easy to read between the lines and see thru what you were attempting. Build yourself up by tearing others down. Only problem was you didn't present any evidence to back up your claims. So of course, I take anything your involved with with a grain of salt.

As for the flow bench, a picture of it in your shop (garage) would be nice. It would also be nice to see your porting room and the rest of the shop...er...garage.



With that out of the way we can return to the AFR topic.

Ed think you could fire up that new flowbench in the corner of your garage and share some flow numbers on the AFR's with a 3.9 bore?

Anyone have intake flow numbers with an LS6/LSX intake in place?

 

Wow! It's getting rough in here. I am no expert but I have read tons of article where AFR heads were tested against the compitition and every single time they win hands down. Also, most of the old school cars and 5.0's that haul the most *** run AFR heads. I know their LS1 heads need to be tested but their other heads kick *** on every other motor. In my opinion,they make the best heads bar none. With their track record they can charge more. AFR makes their own heads! They don't just port them, they make them.

Only time will tell if AFR does it again but I've been waiting for them and I will continue to wait because of their track record.

Finally, Brian if your product is so great, why are you constantly bashing everybody. I've seen you go after Patriot on several occasion. Everytime someone post anything about your heads you need to make excuses. I've heard good things about your Ford heads but that's not the what I am seeing or hearing about your LS1 heads. I'll give you 2 examples.

To guys that I race with bought your heads. One made 402 RWHP and 378 RWTQ running a larger cam than mine and a set of your ST2 TEA heads. THe other guy owns a Z06 and he was making 410 RWHP 380 RWTQ with an MTI C1 or C2 cam. He bought some Stg 2 5.3 heads from you and made 422RWHP with a spike. He really only made 416. It gets worse. He lost 7-9 hp antq up to 5,500 RPM's . So for 1,000 rpm's he gained 6 hp and he lost 7-9 under the curve. Call me silly but its seems like your heads are over priced. $1,700 for 15 hp in one case and -hp in the other. I'll tell you what. When I buy my AFR heads, I will run them against your best heads and I bet you I win. I know its just my opinion but from what I have seen, I have nothing to loose.

As for Ed, I have never met him but a few of the Ford guys I race with are running his set ups and the hauls ***. One guy got 3 tenths just from a cam swap and the cam was similar in size.

Ed keep up the great work and I hope you delve more in the LS1 realm because I think your knowledge will help many of us youngins.

Don't be hating!!!

 

Not a bad guess!! I still think it's funny how Tony spells sabbatical.

 

why'd you bring this back up

 

Damn, I thought this was an update not history!Why do people bring back these OLD threads?????