PP "LS6" head failure, dropping valve seats, destroying engine?
02-09-2004, 07:33 AM
#81
Hmm, that is very interesting. On the 5.7 version of the PP heads are they new heads or are they trade ins??? I am wondering if they do reuse heads or whatever then perhaps maybe poor quality control was performed when the heads were checked out. The only way that I have seen a valve seat drop like that is a motor has been severly overheated. That is just my opinion on the situation. I hope this issue can be resolved in a civil manner. IMO posting info on the board before consulting PP was in bad form. Now posting about the engine failure and letting people draw their own conculsions while you have a third party determine the failure that would be cool. As I'm sure PP would want the heads back to determine the failure themselves. Saying you want to hide the info from PP sounds fishy to me like he somebody else do more work to the heads and he doesn't want them to find out.
02-09-2004, 07:39 AM
#82
Originally Posted by 10secondZ
The warranty should only cover the cylinder heads themselfs...It is an aftermarket part..and 99% of products are warrantied to replacment part's only!Say the head fails due to whatever..a bad spring,faulty seat,ect..doesnt matter..the cylinder head itself is what should be replaced..not the lower half of the engine..I know that sounds mean as hell...but that is the automotive industry not myself..look at when all the 918's where breaking and destroying motors...did they replace every engine they caused damage on...NOPE..they replaced the valve spring that broke...I know it's a shitty thing...but that is how the aftermarket works...if you use a bigger camshaft...that is more strain on the rest of the valvetrain no matter what ramp you use on the lobe...but if you break a spring while using an XE-R camshaft and improper spring pressure due to "oh these are good to .600" i will be fine" it's all of a sudden the valve spring's fault...it's your own fault for not ensuring proper spring pressure,installed height,ect..and if you dont have the tools or ability to check..then have a professional install the spring's or atleast check them...now I know this thread is about failing spring seats or the possibility of..but the same principal stand's...I don't know what terry's warranty is..but he has dealt with enough **** from people bitching and complaining about stupid stuff and replacing heads and springs and ect...wich is how it works...but replacing an engine due to someone elses possible mistake is crap....I own a buisness myself and my warranty like 99% of other shops is..if i install a heads and cam package on a car..I warranty my work and replacment part's that I installed only....if a spring breaks and no damage was done to the head or chamber..I would warranty a new spring from the manufacturer.If a spring breaks and the chamber is pitted and messed up I would warranty a new head from the manufacturer..if the motor blows due to a dropped seat...I would warranty a new head from the manufacturer and that is all...because that is all that got damaged that I installed...Now, The only thing I could see is terry provide a new cylinder head...because he wasnt there...he didnt install them on your car..how is he going to warranty an engine when he wasnt there to make sure everything was installed properly...HE CAN'T...now in the miracle the say he does replace the engine...That is excellent customer service and one hell of a guy...but if he doesnt replace the engine, and just send's a new cylinder head..still excellent customer service and one hell of a guy...just the risk envolved with aftermarket parts here...if you are afraid of breaking parts (because eventually it will happen...cars dont live forever!) then stick to bolt on's....plain and simple..now i might get bashed by this post...but it's the honest truth and I hope this actually enlightens people, that when you internally modify your engine..you are taking a risk..now live on the edge or get the hell off the mountain.
Carter
Carter
02-09-2004, 07:47 AM
#83
Jason & Terry,
A few questions about that hardness test...
It appears about 1 out of ~31 heads ( 6 out of 187) is actually tested for hardness based on the data below. When that 1 head is tested is only one chamber tested or are all four tested? If a chamber fails is Canfield allowed to toss the failing head and retest another? Has an entire batch ever been tested? Has ever single chamber ever been tested for ever cylinder head for the entire batch? Have you confirmed via a 3rd party that Canfields hardness testings is accurate?
Are the chambers retested after the CNC maching to determine what chamber hardness is after CNCing?
Sometimes heat treat is shallow and the treated surface can be removed when a part is machined. I may have missed the data but how deep is the heat treating? How much material is removed when the heads are CNC'd?
Just wondering about the specific test procedures & quailty control for the product in question.
Thanks
A few questions about that hardness test...
It appears about 1 out of ~31 heads ( 6 out of 187) is actually tested for hardness based on the data below. When that 1 head is tested is only one chamber tested or are all four tested? If a chamber fails is Canfield allowed to toss the failing head and retest another? Has an entire batch ever been tested? Has ever single chamber ever been tested for ever cylinder head for the entire batch? Have you confirmed via a 3rd party that Canfields hardness testings is accurate?
Are the chambers retested after the CNC maching to determine what chamber hardness is after CNCing?
Sometimes heat treat is shallow and the treated surface can be removed when a part is machined. I may have missed the data but how deep is the heat treating? How much material is removed when the heads are CNC'd?
Just wondering about the specific test procedures & quailty control for the product in question.
Thanks
Originally Posted by Jason 98 TA
Here's the hardness info from Canfield, these heads are hard!!! I've showed these figures to many race engine builders & everyone agrees they are great quality compared to heads of every price range!
Last edited by 99 Black Bird T/A; 02-09-2004 at 07:53 AM.
02-09-2004, 07:54 AM
#84
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Originally Posted by 10secondZ
The warranty should only cover the cylinder heads themselfs...It is an aftermarket part..and 99% of products are warrantied to replacment part's only!Say the head fails due to whatever..a bad spring,faulty seat,ect..doesnt matter..the cylinder head itself is what should be replaced..not the lower half of the engine..I know that sounds mean as hell...but that is the automotive industry not myself..look at when all the 918's where breaking and destroying motors...did they replace every engine they caused damage on...NOPE..they replaced the valve spring that broke...I know it's a shitty thing...but that is how the aftermarket works...if you use a bigger camshaft...that is more strain on the rest of the valvetrain no matter what ramp you use on the lobe...but if you break a spring while using an XE-R camshaft and improper spring pressure due to "oh these are good to .600" i will be fine" it's all of a sudden the valve spring's fault...it's your own fault for not ensuring proper spring pressure,installed height,ect..and if you dont have the tools or ability to check..then have a professional install the spring's or atleast check them...now I know this thread is about failing spring seats or the possibility of..but the same principal stand's...I don't know what terry's warranty is..but he has dealt with enough **** from people bitching and complaining about stupid stuff and replacing heads and springs and ect...wich is how it works...but replacing an engine due to someone elses possible mistake is crap....I own a buisness myself and my warranty like 99% of other shops is..if i install a heads and cam package on a car..I warranty my work and replacment part's that I installed only....if a spring breaks and no damage was done to the head or chamber..I would warranty a new spring from the manufacturer.If a spring breaks and the chamber is pitted and messed up I would warranty a new head from the manufacturer..if the motor blows due to a dropped seat...I would warranty a new head from the manufacturer and that is all...because that is all that got damaged that I installed...Now, The only thing I could see is terry provide a new cylinder head...because he wasnt there...he didnt install them on your car..how is he going to warranty an engine when he wasnt there to make sure everything was installed properly...HE CAN'T...now in the miracle the say he does replace the engine...That is excellent customer service and one hell of a guy...but if he doesnt replace the engine, and just send's a new cylinder head..still excellent customer service and one hell of a guy...just the risk envolved with aftermarket parts here...if you are afraid of breaking parts (because eventually it will happen...cars dont live forever!) then stick to bolt on's....plain and simple..now i might get bashed by this post...but it's the honest truth and I hope this actually enlightens people, that when you internally modify your engine..you are taking a risk..now live on the edge or get the hell off the mountain.
Carter
Carter
02-09-2004, 08:05 AM
#85
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Originally Posted by 11 Bravo
If this is a pattern with these heads, of course people should know. But can you prove what you just said about Patroit with facts? If you can't, then it makes it look like you are just talking out your rear, seeing how you are a TEA man. No offense, but you see what I mean? There is too much heresay and half truths and not enough facts on these boards. And, why is there not a thread from the customer in question like "My PP heads failed and took out my engine but they are taking care of me/not taking responsibility". Instead of a bs amateur thread like this from a third party who won't even wait to see how the big picture plays out before banging the keyboard. Gotta love the internet lol.
I am sure Verbs can support his statements - if not, I am sure I can help him out to some degree. This isnt a completely isolated incident. Unfortunately for this gentleman though - he is having to deal with it to the tune of several thousand dollars. While I recognize that the original poster asked stated that he didnt want to post this on Tech at that time - I also feel that others had the right to get this information as it unfolded. I am sure many people are feeling a little uneasy about their future purchase or one they've just made - however, its up to the readers to understand that there has been little oppertunity for anyone to remidy the situation and no one yet knows the actual cause of the problem.
And with the comment about "extortion" being stated above - be clear on the the definition of the word before using it. Stating that you are considering going after the cost of a new motor and some misc expenses (to a certain degree) is legitimate. I understand the warranties involved in the aftermarket products quite well - but those warranties are valid when a product fails on its own accord. Should a product fail due to reasons of poor quality control for an existing problem that just wasnt fixed by the company (ie - possibly the valve or seats) - then the company should be liable for the damages associated.
For example (and purely hypothetical) - if Patriot knew they had a problem with their valves or the seat or even their welds - yet continued to sell their product (even if possibly working to fix the issue) and their heads failed (lets say broken spring causing the valve to drop) and destroyed the motor - they should be held liable for more then just replacement/refund of the heads. Did they know of earlier problems or potential problems - who knows.
02-09-2004, 08:15 AM
#86
TECH Fanatic
Originally Posted by 99 Black Bird T/A
Jason & Terry,
A few questions about that hardness test...
It appears about 1 out of ~31 heads ( 6 out of 187) is actually tested for hardness based on the data below. When that 1 head is tested is only one chamber tested or are all four tested? If a chamber fails is Canfield allowed to toss the failing head and retest another? Has an entire batch ever been tested? Has ever single chamber ever been tested for ever cylinder head for the entire batch? Have you confirmed via a 3rd party that Canfields hardness testings is accurate?
Are the chambers retested after the CNC maching to determine what chamber hardness is after CNCing?
Sometimes heat treat is shallow and the treated surface can be removed when a part is machined. I may have missed the data but how deep is the heat treating? How much material is removed when the heads are CNC'd?
Just wondering about the specific test procedures & quailty control for the product in question.
Thanks
A few questions about that hardness test...
It appears about 1 out of ~31 heads ( 6 out of 187) is actually tested for hardness based on the data below. When that 1 head is tested is only one chamber tested or are all four tested? If a chamber fails is Canfield allowed to toss the failing head and retest another? Has an entire batch ever been tested? Has ever single chamber ever been tested for ever cylinder head for the entire batch? Have you confirmed via a 3rd party that Canfields hardness testings is accurate?
Are the chambers retested after the CNC maching to determine what chamber hardness is after CNCing?
Sometimes heat treat is shallow and the treated surface can be removed when a part is machined. I may have missed the data but how deep is the heat treating? How much material is removed when the heads are CNC'd?
Just wondering about the specific test procedures & quailty control for the product in question.
Thanks
02-09-2004, 08:24 AM
#88
TECH Fanatic
Originally Posted by v8maro
How hard would it be for me to go and look at my heads to see if the seats are moving at all?
-Steve
-Steve
Steve,
You have 5.3 heads.No welding.These are the factory seats.I doubt your seats are moving.
02-09-2004, 08:27 AM
#89
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I doubt very much it was from the welded chambers. Chambers have been welded for years and years. There is probably little doubt a dropped seat caused the failure but with aftermarket parts the parts themselves are warrantied.
I would think Patriot would just send them another set of heads and ask for the old ones back for analysis. They have no obligation to replace that motor whatsoever IMO.
Terry seems like a reasonable guy and would probably help out with bolts/gaskets install but to replace the entire motor? I wouldn't think that is his responsibility.
I would think Patriot would just send them another set of heads and ask for the old ones back for analysis. They have no obligation to replace that motor whatsoever IMO.
Terry seems like a reasonable guy and would probably help out with bolts/gaskets install but to replace the entire motor? I wouldn't think that is his responsibility.
02-09-2004, 11:17 AM
#90
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Originally Posted by TVWilkes
Steve,
You have 5.3 heads.No welding.These are the factory seats.I doubt your seats are moving.
You have 5.3 heads.No welding.These are the factory seats.I doubt your seats are moving.
02-09-2004, 11:24 AM
#91
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Ive seen 3 sets of heads that have the same problem one set is 6 months old the other two were 1 month and 1 week..The valve seats are a problem and fall out cause of seat runout is WAY off in some cases causing the seat to move from stress the valve is putting on it not being centered with the guide.
How many people have been fired from PP in the last 7 months?
How many people have been fired from PP in the last 7 months?
