Possible lifter/rocker/oiling issue with video
04-30-2011, 09:14 AM
#23
....It already has a cam. This is a new build with a used shortblock. Why would I have to pull the other head? The noise is only coming from the passenger side. I'd only take off the driver's side if I pick up a set of cometics that a local guy is selling.
05-04-2011, 03:10 PM
#26
I went through 2 sets of lifters and 2 sets of bearings on mine in the past month from oil pressure loss... pulled the barbell out of the back of the block(pryed it out) and unscrewed the lug in the side of the block that leads into the oil passage to find a ball of black RTV pressed against the barbell and blocking oil flow.
If the motor is in your car now, you can get to the lug....it takes an 8mm Allen head socket, and is just above the oil filter. Take a light and shine up in there to see if you can see anything
If the motor is in your car now, you can get to the lug....it takes an 8mm Allen head socket, and is just above the oil filter. Take a light and shine up in there to see if you can see anything
05-04-2011, 06:20 PM
#27
I went through 2 sets of lifters and 2 sets of bearings on mine in the past month from oil pressure loss... pulled the barbell out of the back of the block(pryed it out) and unscrewed the lug in the side of the block that leads into the oil passage to find a ball of black RTV pressed against the barbell and blocking oil flow.
If the motor is in your car now, you can get to the lug....it takes an 8mm Allen head socket, and is just above the oil filter. Take a light and shine up in there to see if you can see anything
If the motor is in your car now, you can get to the lug....it takes an 8mm Allen head socket, and is just above the oil filter. Take a light and shine up in there to see if you can see anything
05-04-2011, 07:50 PM
#28
It started with top end noise, but then my oil pressure started getting lower and lower, then one time dropped to zero and that was it...I guess it was getting lower as the peices of RTV was moving through the oil passage
05-05-2011, 08:15 PM
#29
The barbell passage is after the oil filter, so even if it got sucked up from the oil pan it should have been stopped by either the pickup screen or the filter itself.
Only thing I can think of is somebody removed the cast cover above the filter, where C5s have an oil temp sender threaded in, and used RTV to re-seal it when they bolted it back up.
edit: I think I figured out where your RTV came from...
You fail.
Last edited by crainholio; 05-06-2011 at 05:44 AM.
05-06-2011, 11:13 AM
#30
Not that I want to rain on things here, but that was the same exact sound my engine was making prior to the cam grinding itself down. It looks like on mine, some debris got into a lifter wheel and stopped it from moving, then just wore down the cam until it sounded like a bucket of rocks was going thru.
05-06-2011, 12:17 PM
#31
Any idea where the black RTV came from?
The barbell passage is after the oil filter, so even if it got sucked up from the oil pan it should have been stopped by either the pickup screen or the filter itself.
Only thing I can think of is somebody removed the cast cover above the filter, where C5s have an oil temp sender threaded in, and used RTV to re-seal it when they bolted it back up.
edit: I think I figured out where your RTV came from...
You fail.
The barbell passage is after the oil filter, so even if it got sucked up from the oil pan it should have been stopped by either the pickup screen or the filter itself.
Only thing I can think of is somebody removed the cast cover above the filter, where C5s have an oil temp sender threaded in, and used RTV to re-seal it when they bolted it back up.
edit: I think I figured out where your RTV came from...
You fail.
05-19-2011, 08:34 AM
#33
Finally got to replace the lifters yesterday, been busy with work. But still have the same noise, in the same location. Got a new theory though, lol. When I did the first switch with the lifters I changed location...but I also mixed up the rockers/pushrods (although they all looked good). This time I kept the rockers and pushrods in the same location, and the only new thing in there are the lifters. So maybe now it's just a rocker? I'm picking up 4 spare rockers from a buddy in town today and gonna check that. May also take the valve cover off and turn it over without fuel/spark to see if there's anything abnormal.
It just seems that it was so strange that the sound moved after the first time moving the lifters around. That tells me it's valve train related and not something fatal internally. But then I replace the lifters and the noise is still in the same spot, but kept the rockers/pushrods in the same location. The odds make it impossible that I just happen to have two bad lifters in the same spot in a row. It's has to be a rocker/pushrod. Or maybe the rocker is hitting the valve cover?
It's getting frustrating but I'm getting stupid fast at tearing this thing down. I started at 2pm yesterday with a fully assembled LS1 in the camaro. I broke it down and replaced the lifters and reassembled/started the car by 5:40pm. If all else fails I'll just start an LS1 repair center, lol.
It just seems that it was so strange that the sound moved after the first time moving the lifters around. That tells me it's valve train related and not something fatal internally. But then I replace the lifters and the noise is still in the same spot, but kept the rockers/pushrods in the same location. The odds make it impossible that I just happen to have two bad lifters in the same spot in a row. It's has to be a rocker/pushrod. Or maybe the rocker is hitting the valve cover?
It's getting frustrating but I'm getting stupid fast at tearing this thing down. I started at 2pm yesterday with a fully assembled LS1 in the camaro. I broke it down and replaced the lifters and reassembled/started the car by 5:40pm. If all else fails I'll just start an LS1 repair center, lol.
05-19-2011, 08:58 AM
#34
I just finished replacing my cam and all 16 lifters for a very similar problem...valvetrain clatter. I've visually inspected all 16 of the factory lifters, including trying to compress the plungers w/ a pushrod by hand. Can't find anything that would explain the noise.
Several of the cam lobes and lifter rollers had tiny lines lathed into them, likely from small pieces of valve tip material washing onto them. #2 & 8 intake valve tips were chewed around the outer circumference.
So I started with a valvetrain clatter, replaced the springs and it got worse, went from 7.400" to 7.425" pushrods based on Comp checker tool measurement...and it got even worse.
I popped in a new LS6 cam, Lunati/Morel link-bar lifters, new 7.250" pushrods based on measurement, same rockers, new LS6 heads & valves...no more noise.
Several of the cam lobes and lifter rollers had tiny lines lathed into them, likely from small pieces of valve tip material washing onto them. #2 & 8 intake valve tips were chewed around the outer circumference.
So I started with a valvetrain clatter, replaced the springs and it got worse, went from 7.400" to 7.425" pushrods based on Comp checker tool measurement...and it got even worse.
I popped in a new LS6 cam, Lunati/Morel link-bar lifters, new 7.250" pushrods based on measurement, same rockers, new LS6 heads & valves...no more noise.
05-19-2011, 03:56 PM
#36
Update...again:
Swapped rockers and no luck. After hearing this noise over and over again I'm sure it's a lifter. It's just so odd that it would still happen with a newer set (still used, lol). Anyways....after swapping rockers, running it with valve cover off, swapping pushrods to stock for the hell of it, etc; I decided to throw four other ones in. Here's a better vid of the noise too
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QZ861...ature=youtu.be
When I took the head off this time I looked over all the lobes of the cam and everything looked fine. Just the discoloration of metal from where it rolled on the rollers of the lifters (used cam). No pits or scarring anywhere. And, as luck would have it, I snapped a head bolt when reinstalling the head after putting in four different lifters. So I didn't even get to check if that worked. Now I gotta rip the head off and get what's left of that bolt out
. I gave up for the day and just gonna relax and hit it tomorrow.
Swapped rockers and no luck. After hearing this noise over and over again I'm sure it's a lifter. It's just so odd that it would still happen with a newer set (still used, lol). Anyways....after swapping rockers, running it with valve cover off, swapping pushrods to stock for the hell of it, etc; I decided to throw four other ones in. Here's a better vid of the noise too
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QZ861...ature=youtu.be
When I took the head off this time I looked over all the lobes of the cam and everything looked fine. Just the discoloration of metal from where it rolled on the rollers of the lifters (used cam). No pits or scarring anywhere. And, as luck would have it, I snapped a head bolt when reinstalling the head after putting in four different lifters. So I didn't even get to check if that worked. Now I gotta rip the head off and get what's left of that bolt out
. I gave up for the day and just gonna relax and hit it tomorrow. Last edited by black00ssFL; 05-19-2011 at 04:25 PM.
05-19-2011, 04:56 PM
#37
That sounds pretty hideous but don't rip the heads off just yet. It sounds too high-up in the engine to be a lifter, their noise is usually more muffled.
You've roll-checked every pushrod on a perfectly flat surface (glass pane)?
What pushrods are they? Manufacturer and length?
Rockers move freely and aren't missing any needles?
You've roll-checked every pushrod on a perfectly flat surface (glass pane)?
What pushrods are they? Manufacturer and length?
Rockers move freely and aren't missing any needles?
05-19-2011, 05:01 PM
#38
Too late, already removed heads, and broke a head bolt reinstalling them. PR's are comp hardened .080 wall thickness, 7.035 length. I rolled all of them before initial install when the engine was on a stand (was under the impression that hardened PR's don't bend, just break or break other parts). I swapped rockers with a set a buddy of mine had since his engine is down right now and still made the noise. Tried the stock pushrods since they are a little longer and still the same noise.
05-19-2011, 06:28 PM
#39
What pushrod length measurement did you get, either w/ a Comp checker tool or number of turns on the rocker bolt from zero lash?
edit: also, when you installed the rockers did you tighten them in the GM sequence w/ the lifters on the cam's base circle, or just cinch them all down w/ some on the lobe ramps?
I'm thinking you may have bottomed out your lifters, either by torquing them improperly or by using a pushrod that is too long.
Here's some math to consider:
Stock pushrod is 7.385" and puts somewhere in the 0.080 - 0.100" preload on the lifters.
You have the following modifications which impact pushrod length:
milled heads: -0.030"
LS7 lifters: -0.050" (based on posts here on LS1tech.com, I haven't measured them)
huge cam: + x.xxx" (assuming huge cam base circle radius is smaller than stock)
----------------------------
So you're starting at 7.385 - 0.030 - 0.050 = 7.305" including the 0.080 - 0.100" of preload already factored into the stock pushrod length. Stock pushrod is way too long at this point, but this is before the cam's likely smaller base circle is included.
You'll want to contact your cam manufacturer and find out your cam's base circle diameter, divide that by 2 to get the radius, and subtract from the factory cam base circle radius of 0.775". Add that result to 7.305" and you have a somewhat accurate swag at your new pushrod length target.
For example, I measured my TR224 cam and got 0.7195" radius, yours might be even smaller.
So in my case, I went from a cam with 0.775" base circle radius to 0.7195" and needed a 0.055" longer pushrod to maintain proper lifter preload...having not milled the heads or changed to LS7 lifters.
Let's take a swag at yours, assuming your base circle radius is 0.7195" like my TR224.
7.385 - 0.030 - 0.050 + 0.055 = 7.360" target pushrod length with 0.080 - 0.100" lifter preload. Again, your cam may be smaller base circle radius. You were running 7.350" pushrods for a while and they may have been fine, but I'd get your cam's base circle measurement, and spend the $20 on a Comp checker tool and use that also.
Let us know what you find.
edit: also, when you installed the rockers did you tighten them in the GM sequence w/ the lifters on the cam's base circle, or just cinch them all down w/ some on the lobe ramps?
I'm thinking you may have bottomed out your lifters, either by torquing them improperly or by using a pushrod that is too long.
Here's some math to consider:
Stock pushrod is 7.385" and puts somewhere in the 0.080 - 0.100" preload on the lifters.
You have the following modifications which impact pushrod length:
milled heads: -0.030"
LS7 lifters: -0.050" (based on posts here on LS1tech.com, I haven't measured them)
huge cam: + x.xxx" (assuming huge cam base circle radius is smaller than stock)
----------------------------
So you're starting at 7.385 - 0.030 - 0.050 = 7.305" including the 0.080 - 0.100" of preload already factored into the stock pushrod length. Stock pushrod is way too long at this point, but this is before the cam's likely smaller base circle is included.
You'll want to contact your cam manufacturer and find out your cam's base circle diameter, divide that by 2 to get the radius, and subtract from the factory cam base circle radius of 0.775". Add that result to 7.305" and you have a somewhat accurate swag at your new pushrod length target.
For example, I measured my TR224 cam and got 0.7195" radius, yours might be even smaller.
So in my case, I went from a cam with 0.775" base circle radius to 0.7195" and needed a 0.055" longer pushrod to maintain proper lifter preload...having not milled the heads or changed to LS7 lifters.
Let's take a swag at yours, assuming your base circle radius is 0.7195" like my TR224.
7.385 - 0.030 - 0.050 + 0.055 = 7.360" target pushrod length with 0.080 - 0.100" lifter preload. Again, your cam may be smaller base circle radius. You were running 7.350" pushrods for a while and they may have been fine, but I'd get your cam's base circle measurement, and spend the $20 on a Comp checker tool and use that also.
Let us know what you find.
Last edited by crainholio; 05-19-2011 at 08:06 PM.