how many of you DIDNT degree their cam in???
03-06-2004, 11:13 PM
#21
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Originally Posted by critter
Exactly. As I mentioned above to Reckless, I was doing that 40 years ago - drilling the sprocket and making offset bushing from cold rolled bar stock. I was going to do it for my LS1, but got the Cloyes adjustable by accident so now I don't have to 
But, as I said in the first message, you don't _have_ to degree a cam. It depends on your goals. If you are serious about going fast, you almost have to, but otherwise it is a waste of time.
But, as I said in the first message, you don't _have_ to degree a cam. It depends on your goals. If you are serious about going fast, you almost have to, but otherwise it is a waste of time.
DOT to DOT and forget about it..done everytime...made over 400rwhp on H&C years ago...If you are DOT to DOT its all good on a cam swap..
03-06-2004, 11:58 PM
#22
Originally Posted by Shinobi'sZ
DOT to DOT and forget about it..done everytime...made over 400rwhp on H&C years ago...If you are DOT to DOT its all good on a cam swap..
joel
03-07-2004, 12:16 PM
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Just MHO, but...
The devil is in the details!
Degreeing a cam only takes a little bit of time - maybe 30 minutes. When you spend a lot of money, time and sweat into swapping a cam, why not KNOW it's done right? Racing or rumbling is no different. You do double-check your own work for torque and leaks... don't you?
I would be willing to bet that every reputable speed shop out there degrees EVERY cam they install.
The devil is in the details!
Degreeing a cam only takes a little bit of time - maybe 30 minutes. When you spend a lot of money, time and sweat into swapping a cam, why not KNOW it's done right? Racing or rumbling is no different. You do double-check your own work for torque and leaks... don't you?I would be willing to bet that every reputable speed shop out there degrees EVERY cam they install.
03-07-2004, 07:00 PM
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Let's put it this way: The tolerance in the cam grinding process (don't know how it is nowadays), the tolerance in the timing gears, the tolerance in the chain, the tolerance in the cam dowel locating holes... all are very small, but can add up in certain installs, no way to predict. How important is 1 degree off? In some cases we argue about 113 degrees LSA versus 114, so it must mean *something*. If you find that *your* cam installs 1 or 2 degrees out, wouldn't you want to do something about it before you buttoned the thing up? Or, at least know it? I would. As I said, checking it is no big deal, just a few minutes. Why not? Most times it will check out on the money, but what if it doesn't? You gonna pull everything and check it then?
See my point? It's an insurance thing like all quality control issues (manufacturer's or installer's or wrench-turning owner's). Don't assume. That will bite you from time to time. Ouch!
See my point? It's an insurance thing like all quality control issues (manufacturer's or installer's or wrench-turning owner's). Don't assume. That will bite you from time to time. Ouch!
Last edited by TeeKay; 03-07-2004 at 07:19 PM.
03-08-2004, 10:31 AM
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Originally Posted by binksz06
But what if you want to advance it a few degrees and it has asymmetrical lobes????
joel
joel
I recently pulled the heads and decided to check the cam advance. Sure enough the crank gear was in the 3rd keyway which is 4* advance. When I cranked over the motor and observed #1 cylinder it was still in the hole 1/4" after the cam dot was @ 6 o'clock position. I took the cam gear off just to check things out, then I took the crank gear off, I rotated to get #1 ATDC then place the crank gear back on the crank...the key way is in the 5th key (which is Standard) at about the 2 O'Clock Position and the DOT is straight up. I then reinstalled the cam gear and put the DOT straight down (DOT to DOT) to match the crank gear...it is easy to see if you are DOT to DOT if you are paying attention. I rotated the rotating assembly with my grandfather holding the pushrod in the place...this is when I got STUMPED because I thought that I was 180* out because the #1 cylinder was not firing ATDC..but #6 cylinder was...
#1 was in overlap and was not firing unless both DOTs were at 12 O'Clock....that is when I posted and people on this board told me that #1 ATDC is actually on overlap when the Cam and Crank gears are DOT to DOT....PHEW!!!So it is really idiot proof if you get the gears DOT to DOT. Plus my cam had 4* advanced into it from Comp...so it had 4* more and that is why I suspect it was rattling more up top and making a lot more power down low then dropping off....signs of too much advance....in fact I was told it was better to Retard 4* for top end...I thought about it..but then decided to just leave it DOT to DOT and call it a day.
03-08-2004, 12:41 PM
#33
in otherwords (what everyone has said):
99.9% of the time it won't matter. For most people 100% of the time it wouldn't matter either. If you are looking for every little bit of power AND know what the hell you are doing so you can actually set the cam up at its best point (might be dot to do, 2 degrees, 10 degrees, etc...) then degree it.
99.9% of the time it won't matter. For most people 100% of the time it wouldn't matter either. If you are looking for every little bit of power AND know what the hell you are doing so you can actually set the cam up at its best point (might be dot to do, 2 degrees, 10 degrees, etc...) then degree it.
03-08-2004, 12:47 PM
#34
Originally Posted by Shinobi'sZ
I have an adjustable 9 keyway SLP (Rollmaster) Double Roller. The guy who assembled my motor degreed the cam. I have a Comp Xer 224/224 .581 114lsa. When I picked up the motor over 1 year ago he told me he had to advance the cam 4 degrees to get everything lined up. Well when I notice that I made a lot of power down low and through the mid than a drop off towards the top.
I recently pulled the heads and decided to check the cam advance. Sure enough the crank gear was in the 3rd keyway which is 4* advance. When I cranked over the motor and observed #1 cylinder it was still in the hole 1/4" after the cam dot was @ 6 o'clock position. I took the cam gear off just to check things out, then I took the crank gear off, I rotated to get #1 ATDC then place the crank gear back on the crank...the key way is in the 5th key (which is Standard) at about the 2 O'Clock Position and the DOT is straight up. I then reinstalled the cam gear and put the DOT straight down (DOT to DOT) to match the crank gear...it is easy to see if you are DOT to DOT if you are paying attention. I rotated the rotating assembly with my grandfather holding the pushrod in the place...this is when I got STUMPED because I thought that I was 180* out because the #1 cylinder was not firing ATDC..but #6 cylinder was... #1 was in overlap and was not firing unless both DOTs were at 12 O'Clock....that is when I posted and people on this board told me that #1 ATDC is actually on overlap when the Cam and Crank gears are DOT to DOT....PHEW!!!
So it is really idiot proof if you get the gears DOT to DOT. Plus my cam had 4* advanced into it from Comp...so it had 4* more and that is why I suspect it was rattling more up top and making a lot more power down low then dropping off....signs of too much advance....in fact I was told it was better to Retard 4* for top end...I thought about it..but then decided to just leave it DOT to DOT and call it a day.
I recently pulled the heads and decided to check the cam advance. Sure enough the crank gear was in the 3rd keyway which is 4* advance. When I cranked over the motor and observed #1 cylinder it was still in the hole 1/4" after the cam dot was @ 6 o'clock position. I took the cam gear off just to check things out, then I took the crank gear off, I rotated to get #1 ATDC then place the crank gear back on the crank...the key way is in the 5th key (which is Standard) at about the 2 O'Clock Position and the DOT is straight up. I then reinstalled the cam gear and put the DOT straight down (DOT to DOT) to match the crank gear...it is easy to see if you are DOT to DOT if you are paying attention. I rotated the rotating assembly with my grandfather holding the pushrod in the place...this is when I got STUMPED because I thought that I was 180* out because the #1 cylinder was not firing ATDC..but #6 cylinder was...
#1 was in overlap and was not firing unless both DOTs were at 12 O'Clock....that is when I posted and people on this board told me that #1 ATDC is actually on overlap when the Cam and Crank gears are DOT to DOT....PHEW!!!So it is really idiot proof if you get the gears DOT to DOT. Plus my cam had 4* advanced into it from Comp...so it had 4* more and that is why I suspect it was rattling more up top and making a lot more power down low then dropping off....signs of too much advance....in fact I was told it was better to Retard 4* for top end...I thought about it..but then decided to just leave it DOT to DOT and call it a day.
Buy a fully adjustable timing set, like a Hexadjust/Cloyes, then move ot slightly advanced and slightly retarded. Check your VEs at each....you'll be surprised how much of an effect it has. I was.
joel
03-08-2004, 01:36 PM
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Originally Posted by 2001CamaroGuy
in otherwords (what everyone has said):
99.9% of the time it won't matter. For most people 100% of the time it wouldn't matter either. If you are looking for every little bit of power AND know what the hell you are doing so you can actually set the cam up at its best point (might be dot to do, 2 degrees, 10 degrees, etc...) then degree it.
99.9% of the time it won't matter. For most people 100% of the time it wouldn't matter either. If you are looking for every little bit of power AND know what the hell you are doing so you can actually set the cam up at its best point (might be dot to do, 2 degrees, 10 degrees, etc...) then degree it.
03-08-2004, 03:15 PM
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Originally Posted by binksz06
All Dot to Dot tells you is you are Dot to Dot. Degreeing confirms that valve events take place where you want them to - and that you have the cam you ordered.
Buy a fully adjustable timing set, like a Hexadjust/Cloyes, then move ot slightly advanced and slightly retarded. Check your VEs at each....you'll be surprised how much of an effect it has. I was.
joel
Buy a fully adjustable timing set, like a Hexadjust/Cloyes, then move ot slightly advanced and slightly retarded. Check your VEs at each....you'll be surprised how much of an effect it has. I was.
joel
03-08-2004, 05:13 PM
#37
Originally Posted by Shinobi'sZ
So do you agree or disagree with the potential gain in the upper rpm band with retarded timing vs. advance??? It is my understanding that there is more power with the timing retarded 2-4 degrees in the upper rpms. With the Turbo I make an enormous amount of power down low so I thought it would be beneficial to be at Standard or Retarded 4* vs advanced 4*.
at overlap (supercharge effect of overlap ). But I would think this only applies to NA.
Wouldn't you want a wide LSA with a turbo to separate the events (intake from exhaust) ? I mean you guys are boosting a hell of alot more air into the cylinders than can occur with atmospheric. Narrow LSA, with 30 - 50 degrees of overlap, wouldn't you just push it out through the exhaust valve.
I agree with you- I just don't know the answer for boosted condtions.
Maybe someone can help us out here??
joel
03-08-2004, 11:03 PM
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Originally Posted by 2001CamaroGuy
in otherwords (what everyone has said):
99.9% of the time it won't matter. For most people 100% of the time it wouldn't matter either. If you are looking for every little bit of power AND know what the hell you are doing so you can actually set the cam up at its best point (might be dot to do, 2 degrees, 10 degrees, etc...) then degree it.
99.9% of the time it won't matter. For most people 100% of the time it wouldn't matter either. If you are looking for every little bit of power AND know what the hell you are doing so you can actually set the cam up at its best point (might be dot to do, 2 degrees, 10 degrees, etc...) then degree it.
03-09-2004, 09:50 AM
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Originally Posted by TeeKay
I'll make my point one last time: LEARN what the hell you're doing and degree any cam before you button it up. Only screw-ups can bite you!
Its a good point but I have been part of and have seen over 40 Vettes get cam jobs and FI making over 600 rwhp....and not a single one of them had the cam other than DOT to DOT....so there is some proof in numbers....none of those cars are screwed up. Very few people/tuners degree the cam on a cam swap. If anything just checking Pistion to Valve Clearance if the heads have been milled or a very hi lift is being used...and that is it CPO.
03-09-2004, 10:06 AM
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Well, Sninobi'sZ, this just goes to show that different people have different ways, and one is not necessarily better than another. I would, you wouldn't. Whichever, you can't argue with success. It's all a matter of degree anyway! 