critter

iTrader: (9)

Proof of what? Proof that it will not run better with the cam degreed? I don't think so. No one is arguing that it will screw thigs up if you install dot to dot. It may be true that very few people/tuners that you know degree cams, but that is hardly proof that you shouldn't degree a cam or that degreeing a cam is not useful.

Shinobi'sZ

Well Hello Carl,
The proof is the fact that the cars have good driveability, idle well..even with lots of lope..no hunting, have nice dyno graphs, turn good 1/4 miles, and make lots of power...and have been around for 1K's of miles...what more do you need dude..other than a response from somebody.

I have not argued that one shouldn't degree a cam or that it should not be done..I am just saying that for the most part using Compcams it has been unecessary...its that simple..how many cams have you installed and degreed in an LS1???? Just curious...no flame Carl.

SoloSport

damnit guys I'm ordering my cam today and I don't know what to do...Degree it, or not degree it...and that is simply the question...

critter

iTrader: (9)

And the answer is simple - if it is a race car, degree it. If it is not, then don't. Simple.

critter

iTrader: (9)

lol! You didn't even respond to the question!! The premise is that you degree the cam on a race car and not on a street car. I understood you to say that it was never necessary to degree a cam, and you offered 40 cars that don't have problems a proof of that. I merely said that 40 cars that don't have problems is not proof that you don't want to degree a cam on a race car.
So we are in agreement and I misread your post. Right? My only possbile excuse is that the coffee hadn't kicked in yet
lol!! Don't see your point, but I'll answer. LS1s? none. Other cars - SBC, BBC, Pontiacs, 348/409s, Mopar Hemi, bikes, etc? More than you can count.

Shinobi'sZ

The reason I asked how many cams on LS1's is that when I did it....I was greatly confused because when the cam and crank gear were DOT to DOT and Piston #1 was ATDC..it was not firing but #1 instead was on overlap and #6 was...I didn't remember that on other SBC..I always thought #1 was firing..maybe that is why I had to the distributor in 180* out sometimes. But degreeing the cam is about Valve Events in relation to #1 ATDC...I guess the bottom line for me on an LS1 as long as I don't have any problems installing cams DOT to DOT then I will have no reason to change the process. I just went through a somewhat painful lesson where the engine builder degreed my cam (motor was outta of the car being rebuilt) and when I picked up he told me he had to advance the cam 4* so that VE were correct with #1 ATDC...well the cam I have CompXer 224/224 .581 114lsa has 4* advance ground into it to make up for the LS1...so I ended up with 8* advance (#1 was .25" in the hole) and I had a **** load of low and mid..and then it died and rattled at the top....I called comp and they told me that that is exactly what having too much advance would do...so it is now at Standard DOT to DOT like it was before..so it should all work good again.
Peace.

critter

iTrader: (9)

What a PITA! I've been doing my own work again since I bought this Z28. I got tired of not getting the job done right. It wasn't a big deal on the beater, but not for this car. I worked on 348 Chevy once that wouldn't run right after a tuneup. Several, in fact. The bond on the rubber between the two pieces of the harmonic damper had broken, and the outer ring had slipped, mabye 30 degrees. If you set the timing with a light, the car would hardly run. The guys at the shop said the motor needed rebuilt, but it ran fine once I found TDC and got the timing set right Then there was the Merc that had never had the sparkplug under the air compressor changed, even though it had been tuned up several times at the dealer. Or the VW that quit running shortly after a dealer tuneup because they didn't grease the distributor cam and wore the rubbing block on the points until they no longer opened. Oh yeah, I have some stories...

Take care

dano73327

There is an awful lot of ridiculous misinformation in this thread. I build engines professionally and I would not, nor do I know anyone who would install a cam in any engine without degreeing it. Not only are you attempting to verify the valve events that are specified on the cam card but you are also ensuring that the cam is installed with the proper intake centerline. What if your cam gear and/or crank gear are machined slightly off which has been the case many times and when you install "dot to dot" you are actually 4 or 8 deg advanced or retarded? Or what if your cam came with some advance ground in or maybe none at all, or even some retard ground in by accident? Any of these things could happen and you would never know how much performance you may be missing without degreeing the cam and installing it at the correct ICL for your application. While it is true that you can slap things together as some of the people on here have said and show respectable dyno numbers (or not) you cant be sure that anything you've done is correct without checking it and maybe your combo could have been twenty to thirty hp down from its potential.

Shinobi'sZ

I don't think any of it is rediculous misinformation...I respect everything else in your post though...but definetly not the slam...I have seen over 100 ls1 cars done this way...and they all..ALL..have made killer power and run strong. I have never indicated that it is wrong to degree a cam..just pointed out that on a cam swap in an LS1..that it is not necessary.

Peace.

dano73327

Its not meant to be a slam but degreeing a cam is always necessary if for nothing else but to verify the accuracy of your parts. If youre happy just popping in parts and getting what you get then that is fine because that is probably what most people do but it is also what separates your average H/C/I type mods from the faster more powerful cars that are built to precise standards. As I said not a slam on anyone on here just my view on what separates "installers" from "engine builders".

Shinobi'sZ

That is a definite difference....I am no engine builder but have been installing parts for years...I assembled my old 289 Hi Po Ford Motor.......that has been the only one. The rest has been just parts. I have seen too many more powerful cars in the Corvette Community than what my friends shop puts out. I know he does not degree cams and neither have I with the LS1. In fact I believe my Engine builder in degreeing my cam screwed up by advancing it 4* on a cam with 4* advance ground into it, it just created some problems. But maybe that was just the engine builder missing something..because I know plenty of those guys that have screwed up to..you get a lot of guys bitching about cranks needing clearancing....and the fact that the eagle or callies crank needs to be clearanced when installed...I always thought that was standard procedure to check for when building up an engine and so is degreeing the cam. But with the motor in the car I have never and know my friend does not bother degreeing the cam..we just line them up DOT to DOT and button them back up...never had a problem..I guess I will go knock on some wood.

99 Black Bird T/A

iTrader: (4)

I have three friends that build Busch NASCAR engines and other types of racing engines. They degree the cam in after checking the cam on a cam doctor. They also check P to V. While some might think that is overkill.

These same friends installed my heads and cam package back in 2002. All of the parts used on my car were checked with the same attention to detail. The result was about 1/2 dozen problems were caught BEFORE the car was even touched. The install went perfect and the car has been trouble free.

The cam went on the cam doctor. It was a custom 224 on a 113 w/4 degrees of advance ground in. The cam doctor showed it was actually a 112.x with 3.25 degrees ground in. The cam was slightly retarded in the grinding process. For some reason my car only had P to V of ~.055 when check with a solid roller lifter and dial gauge. This was way tigher than normal. To get a "safe" P to V the was degree'd in with extreme car. The car has P to V of ~.075 on intake with only a 224 XE-R cam.

In my case just slapping a 224 XE-R cam and doing dot to dot would have made for problems because .055 is too tight for safe P to V on intake.

My point is if you don't check and double check your taking a bigger chance. In my 99 T/A's case not checking would have really set my car up for long term problems.

The question is are you comfortable with the chance?

It's true 99 times out of a 100 you won't find a case like mine...but they do happen.

Attention to detail keeps one from over looking power. Of course if you don't know what your doing it won't matter if you degree the cam in.

Bink

It's like my Dad ( he was a "mechanic" ) used to scream at me when I was a kid - Goddamnit, if you're going to do it, DO IT RIGHT!!! Now get your head out of your *** and go DO IT!!


You get average results from doing the average - think about that.

joel

TeeKay

shinobi's and critter, you've spent more time arguing about doing it or not doing it than doing it in the first place! I'm sure you have good reason for your opinions. But you're off into a philosophical discussion that doesn't help anyone. If anyone has read all of this, then you have the time to DEGREE YOUR CAM (reading this thread has used more time than doing it). If you have ignored all the varying opinions in this thread, don't degree! The idea is to check the engine before you button it up. It won't hurt! I vote degree any cam on install, that's safe. Anything else isn't!

Shinobi'sZ

I don't think anybody has really been arguing. And if people are calling over 650rwhp/rwtq on a C5 average than so be it. I have not argue'd that one should not degree a cam...just that I and many others have not and have ended up with way above what I would call AVERAGE hp. I tell you what when I throw my car back on the rollers we will see if it makes more power than it did before...if does it does and so be it. Both of my C5 have made consistantly more power that many other C5's or Fbodies without having degree'd the cam...that is all that really matters to me.
Peace!

TeeKay

Peace indeed!

I still vote degree EVERY cam install. That way you're sure. As I said, most of the time it's on the money. Don't be disappointed when you find it's right the first time. Pop one and say, "One less thing to worry about." I'm glad yours have turned out right!

Edit: I just want to say that critter and shinobi'sz aren't wrong, they have just dealt with quality suppliers that they can trust to give them great parts. If you feel that way about your supplier, then you should trust them to give you the right stuff too. I'm just a little skeptical, even with great suppliers.

Scott Turvey

Here you go:
http://www.compcams.com/Technical/In.../Files/129.pdf
The is a ton of stuff there:
http://www.compcams.com/Technical/Instructions/

TeeKay

Boy, you know that I read that reply 8 or 10 times and I didn't pick up on "sight" for "site". I was off in the weeds trying to figure. (Yes, I do drink late at night, thank you! ) Great job posting a pertinent link!