Pro Mouse

iTrader: (15)

Yep,My car has it too,but I didnt really notice it until I added my Headers?The damn thing drinks oil like crazy,2-3 quarts every 3000k.Yhe Cold knock goes away after warm up,It dont bother me that much,but I do worry about it comming apart though...

RussStang

I am probably the antithesis of a sue happy person, and I hate lawyers as much as the next guy, but some of you guys that are saying there isn't a problem need to go find a ls1 that has a REAL piston slap problem. It is loud. I have a 2000 z28 and on cold mornings I have piston slap, loud. I know what it sounds like, and it can EASILY be heard over the stock valvetrain/injector noise. It really does sounds like a diesel engine. Fortunetly my piston slap goes almost totally away at normal operating temperature, so when my car is warmed up the only noises I hear are the excessive clicking sounds from the rear end, a squeaking rear suspension, and the whine of a wearing carrier bearing. Keep in mind, my car is stock, and only has 24,000 miles. It might have seen 2 burnouts so far, and has never been launched hard.

I really feel for the 01/02 fbody/vette owners. Whereas my slap goes away after the engine heats up, some of their engines are known for slapping loudly, all of the time. I have heard this in person, and this is something easily audible from outside of the car at some distance. I wouldn't want to dish out $25,000+ for a new camaro/firebird or $45,000+ for a new corvette and hear my "perfomance motor" slapping all the time it is on. I think this is a step in the right direction to get GM to realize they can't just lie to their customers to save money on a mistake they made. The LS1 has gained a reputation as an oil consumer for a reason. Just going to thicker oil doesn't seem to solve everyones problem, either.

GueSS Who

I would have to say that the louder the piston slap the more hp it has from the factory. I had it really bad in my 02SS and took it down to the dyno and produced 350/365 with a lid. I definitely sounds like a 7.3 turbo diesel in the morning for sure though. I don't think anything will get done about it. There are to many people out there with piston slap in their trucks that have 150,000+ miles on their vehicles. If it was a real problem the motor would be hurt before then. IMO

kossuth

iTrader: (12)

Well, the honest to goodness truth of the matter as I see it is this. Yes there are some problems with the piston design of the LS1 style motors. Are there overbore problems, yes there are. Now here comes the real issue. What if GM where to have to replace the motor or extend the warranty to 100,000 or more. GM couldn't afford that. Before we have people jump into this do the math. Let's say GM's cost per LS1 motor, IE 4.8, 5.3, 5.7, 6.0, 3.1, 3.4, and 8.1 is $2000, ( I know probiably low for the all aluminum powerplants but that is a good round number to use) Now in Canada in 1999 GM sold about 200,000 trucks, lets knock about 2/3rds of that off being that includes S10's and some of the fullsize trucks did have 4.3's in them which don't suffer from this problem. So lets say 80,000 truck sales a year in Canada that have a LS1 style motor in it. Well, lets put the labor rate for a GM garage at $50 a hour and lets assume it takes 3 hours to change a motor. So just for pickups GM would have about $2150 into replacing the motor in each truck using my low estimates. Now lets say 1 in 8 trucks require that the motor be replaced right away. That is about $2,150,000 just in Canada for 1999 model year trucks. That doesn't include anything sold in the US during that time frame or any of the y or f bodies. So lets assume that GM sold the same amount of units in 2000, 01, 02, and 03 model years. So that is 5 years total of the LS1 truck platform that is about $107,500,000 over 5 years in just replacement engines. Remember again these are just trucks sold in Canada. Sorry I couldn't find any data off hand on Google for US sales. I think alot of people really don't see the gravity of this situation. GM could very well go broke if they are forced to replace the number of engines that could very well be affected by this. If anybody can backup or add anymore data to this please do because from a mathmatical standpoint is can be very very ugly for GM.

In closing I would like to say this. Ford has stepped up and fixed a similar problem with the 4.6 motor in it's trucks. The thing about Ford is that that only covers the 1/2 ton trucks and light duty 3/4 ton trucks, and not all the motors were affected, (only those motors made in one particular plant had the problem). GM has to cover all their 1/2 ton trucks 3/4 ton trucks, and 1 ton trucks for this problem. All the little malibus and regals that use the 3.1 and 3.4 motors are not taken into consideration as well are the f and y bodies. I don't honestly think GM can afford this on the scale of which it lies upon. Sorry to say that but that is what I'm concluding from the data I'm seeing. Even without numbers for the other motors you can see it's very very financially ugly for GM.

That is why GM makes the excuses. That is why GM gives people the run around about replacing a badly "slapping" motor. That is why GM says it is normal for a motor to consume 1 quart of oil per 3000 miles. Granted some oil consumption can be looked upon as normal, but my 104,000 mile Dodge Ram doesn't use any oil at all and that is what I would expect from a 12,000 mile LS1 motor that has been properly maintained. Sorry about the novel guys but I feel I had to put my 2 cents in, or in this thread I guess about 2 bucks worth LOL .

deznuttzz28

got one here, especially when i warm-up the car..

10.5 Dave

iTrader: (5)

My 2002 Silverado HD 8.1 hammered like a big ol Detroit Diesel on start-up.It burned 103 quarts of oil in the 58,000 miles I owned it.The 2003 Duramax HD that replaced it has burned less oil in the 21,000 miles I have owned it than the 8.1 did in 500 miles.I try to avoid litigation,but when I buy a new truck that stickers at 38k and oil burning is out of control something had to be done.I kept a detailed paper trail for my attorney to use in the arbitration hearings.It took 10 months but he won a judgement for me and I traded the truck on my new Z06.Those of you that have a real problem should have no fear of GM.A skilled lemon law attorney can do wonders.

Automag928

Well, it may be financially ugly for GM to fix, but should a company be producing and selling a product that doesnt perform up to standards? I'm sorry but a company that continually puts out shoddy work, doesnt stand by that product when there are troubles with it, and then basically flat out lies that there even is a problem - do you think a company like this should be in business still? I've got an extended warranty on my vette, and there are several TSBs out for it (wind noise passenger side, rocking seats, etc etc), but do you think GM will cover these problems via my extended warranty?

kossuth

iTrader: (12)

The answer to your question is no. GM shouldn't be selling a product that doesn't perform up to the expected standards, and if they sell a product that has problems then they should be liable to fix it. I'm in no way supporting GM because what they are doing is absolutely wrong I 100% agree with that. I'm just pointing out some raw data to show why GM might be so difficult to deal with in this situation.

XuhQshinR

If you have it bad enough like mine was it will sound like a duramax diesel and remain loud until it reaches full operating temp. (sometimes 10 minutes at idle on a cold day) Then it subsides but you can still hear it. There are those that say "I have it and it goes away in a minute or less. I don't see why you are whining about a little noise that goes away so fast"

Either they do not understand or have not actually heard the ones that are so loud it is to the point of embarassment to start it up when anyone is around. That is severe piston slap and that is what mine had.

When the Service Manager finally heard it at a true cold start up one morning he said it was the worst he had heard of any of them and he has heard some loud ones.

The dealership wanted to put in a new engine intitially
They would not replace the engine yet as they were told to hold off (By the GM District Rep) GM wanted to try the new revised piston and rings replacement (has already been known to be a temporary fix many times). But as of this morning I was doing a job at Indiana University last night through this morning and when I started it up it started slapping again like it did before my initial problem got to the point of LOUD. I have only put about 2000 miles on the new pistons thus far so I am sure it is going to come back like it was before as this is exactly how it started the last time before it got unbearably loud.

I guess it is true that there is a particular problem with cylinders 1 & 8 being out of spec (especially in the 2001 and earlier 2002's). My GM tech advised me that he has also been told the same but is limited to do only what GM District allows him to do. They would not even allow him to know anything about what was being done to my block. They told him to pull the engine, send it out to the machine shop, when it gets back put it back in and test it.
He stated he noticed a faint slap and feared it would return to the level it was before in a few thousand miles or so.

What will GM do and how do you get them to do it?
They replace the Pistons/Rings and offer you a warranty (either 75K or 100K) on the engine only if you have been a regular GM new car customer and bitch a lot. ( I bought a 2003 Cavalier (son actually paying for it with my credit), and the next day bought my wife a 2003 Malibu LS. The next day we sent our daughter and son in-law there and they bought a 2003 Grand Am GT. So we spent some money in June as I bought this SS a week later for me at the same dealership with 9K on the odometer!

The next step when that temporary fix fails is a new designed long block that has the fix (better tolerances) that are closely monitored. Guess tolerances became more of a problem when part of the block is made in Mexico and other parts of the assembly are in Canada and USA. Too many different hands from different locations in the final product if you ask me.

Is the LS1 a great engine? Yes without a doubt!
Could it be better if they paid closer attention to the tolerances? Yes, and with the late 2003's to Present day they finally have because they know they are in a world of $$ problems because the Class Action posted here is the 4th class action on this problem in 3 months.

It is about to bust loose on them. They would be better off doing what Ford (there is the "F" word I love to hate) did.

Ford replaced their Piston Slappers a few years back with NEW for those in warranty, and remanufactured engines for those out of warranty with the piston slap problems. You can do a search on this if you question it. Its out there. Check here to see what similarites Ford had with this issue and how they resolved it. http://www.f150online.com/forums/sho...&threadid=8747

"A bunch of whimps?" I don't think so. My daddy didn't pay for my cars...I did...I guess that makes me the "Daddy" ... and gives me the right to fight to have what I paid for.

Brand New Cars alone, I have bought 12 BRAND NEW in my lifetime and 4 of those have been Camaro's and One Firebird Formula, so I should know what to expect a V8 or any new engine to sound like and a diesel is not one of those sounds I expect out of a gasoline powered V8.

First New car was 1986 so that averages out to be 1.5 NEW cars per year!
I must love payments! Nahh...I like to think I am just helping our economy out.

C-Ya!

XuhQshinR

I could have a lot more power if I was the size of "Refrigerator Perry" too, but that does not mean I would enjoy looking like that in a trade off for a little more power.

I want my SS to Look Great, Run Great, Sound Great, and get "Possitive" attention.

Rhode Island Red

iTrader: (2)

I have an early 2002 TA I burn 1-2.5 quarts of oil every 3000 miles . It slaps loudly when I start it up, then it dies down, but still perceptible if you know what to listen for.. I have been to the dealer on the oil consumption iss and no luck....

then again even if my engine was covered under one of the TSB's if you read the tsb fix procedure, you would see that the piston walls are not re-honed... in other words if your piston walls are sratched.... the TSB won't fix that

GM has stated that my oil consumption is normal along with the piston slap.... bull crocky... I know of a 2001 haw that didn not burn oil or slapped at all...

I really wouldn't trust a small dealer who barely works on LS1's to fix my problem

kossuth

iTrader: (12)

The reason why GM won't hone the cylinder walls is because the engine already has clearance issues, and to hone a cylinder that is already too large for the piston invites even more trouble. In alot of cases you can get away with just putting in new pistons and rings as long as the bore is right but the bore is the problem in this case. Granted putting in new pistons and rings without rehoning isn't the best thing to do from a performance standpoint but it has been done time and time again to engines in farm tractors with little trouble. Problem is here the bores are messed up. If GM could just bore the block not slap new STD sized pistons in there that would for sure fix the problem I'm sure nobody has the tooling to get a procedure like that correct 95% of the time or even have that many blocks capable of that procedure so they can't do that. Basically the LS1/LS6 motors are junk to GM if they have bore problems.

SSN8R

Agreed, but actually these are sleaved bore engines. They could resleave the bad cylinders and resolve the problem completely.

Lecture coming:
For those of you that agree the slap is 'normal' or 'acceptable'...You've got to be kidding me. You should be ashamed to be a member of this sight IMO. This is supposed to be a 'neutral' ground to exchange information and talk about problems. Anyone that KNOWS anything about engines, recognizes this for what it is: A PROBLEM. LOOK AT THE PICTURES ON THE PISTONSLAP.COM SIGHT, it IS causing damage.

If you think GM can't afford it, I agree. But if you look at the technical bulletins on pistonslap.com. You'll note this problem has continued on into the '04 model year. I wonder if they can afford NOT TO FIX THE MANUFACTURING PROCESS/SPECS OF ENGINES THAT ARE SHIPPED TODAY. They certainly can't afford NOT TO FIX IT....

1. GM changed their policy on oil consumption because of this problem.
2. They initially acknowledged there was a problem and now say it is normal.
3. ... 4. ...ETC.
C'mon this is blatant and outright robbery.

Rant/Lecture over

D&R
SSN8R

ZDOG

iTrader: (13)

got slap here. when the exhaust was stock it almost sounded like it was backfiring in the exhaust pipe only. now i got a loudmouth and its harder to hear but if you give it any rev while cold ..........it sounds like a bitch slapping contest with the exhaust. on a side note, if the oil consumption is normal(that is to burn and waste fuel resources)how did it get by the feds(epa?) with all the concern over pollution and fuel conservation? i cant see how oil consumption can be considered to be normal. whats the difference if your burning a quart in 3000 miles or dripping it on the ground? they'd fix the external leak but not internal? in my mind thats bs! i got an 89 caprice beater with 180,000 on it (305) and it doesnt lose a drop of oil. now i went and bought a brand new 02 z ond in my second oil change im missing 1.5 quarts?
if i find that this law suit is legite, ill jump on! if it was isolated cases they would fix it im sure, but with the volumne of problems they put there back to the wall.
i should have bought a durango! at least the ball jont issue is an easier fix!

The Guy in MY 99TA

I have a pretty bad case of it. I might just shoot em an email. I'de like a new ls6 block!

Josh S.

kossuth

iTrader: (12)

I agree with most of your statement except for this. The aluminum block motors are not designed for installation of replacement sleeves. The sleeves are cast into the block when made. The book LS1/LS6 Performance shows very well how the sleeves are set into the block. Basically the outside of the sleeve similar in texture to a piece of the (sp) corragated drainage pipe with ribs in it. Those ribs are what hold the sleeve in the block. GM would not accept a Darton style sleeve for dealership servicing. Now if GM took all it's core motors and did this I'm sure they could tool up use a stepped wet style Darton sleeve in a reman motor, but that is something GM would have to do themselves. I would never trust any local machinist to install those sleeves. There is only one person I know of that I would trust other than MTI or ARE to install sleeves in a motor and that is the guy that rebuilt, (sorry I'm a farm boy:LOL our Farmall M. He bored the block and put a Super M sleeve kit in it for a little added kick, (added about 30 CID) and that motor uses wet sleeves from the factory.

LS1derfull

My motor is a cold slapper with slight hint of it fully warmed up. Its not right but i will live with it until i am ready to hone block for forged pistons or trick Hypereutectics. That way im assured of round cylinders and proper skirt clearances when im done. Getting GM to replace my shortblock or pistons is not insurance against re-occurance. Therefore im not interested in Legal action, but i understand others frustration. I have put this engine thru extreme abuse and i am not worried about potential failure, it has proven its durability to me. My way of settling this situation will cost me some money but i hope others will see it as a better way of making a great engine even greater.

robertbartsch

Pro Stock:
The standard arrangement for contingent class-action law suits of this type is 33% of the payout which becomes payable to the law firm upon succesful settlement of the case.

I suspect ALL owners of vehicles with LS1/LS6 engines could participate in the settlement irrespective of whether their vehicle is impacted by piston slap. This is possible since the law suit illeges that the undisclosed defect has reduced
the resale value of ALL vehicles with these engines. (My resale value is crap so I can sue GM even though my engine runs great)

Hey, look - it does not cost you anything to participate as a claimant, so I encourage EVERYONE to participate in the law suit.

NOTAV6

iTrader: (3)

I don't know the details of this case so I'll withhold judgement. If GM is making faulty parts and fraudently misrepresenting customers (the public), they should be punished.

However, it's worth noting that none of us in our experience with the General's products has complained of this. In fact, the quality of GM engines is a prime reason we've been drawn to the manufacturer.

Lawsuits against major corporations such as these have become out of control. Under the guise of protecting the consumer, trial lawyers such as John Edwards are allowed to screw companies, doctors, etc out of millions. All it takes is a few sympathic jurors and a leftist/elitist judge to do this.

In the end, everyone is hurt. GM is less able to serve its customers (us), its employees or stockholders. Good doctors are forced out of business. I could easily go on but this is not a political forum.

Let's carefully consider the facts and enforce the law rather than twist it for self-interest gain.

Black Z/28

Damn, that sounds like ****. I'd be pissed if my motor sounded like that.

Does this problem occur from day 1 or can it crop up at any point. I'm curious because I have 7k on my '02 and haven't had a problem- yet.