Low end torque camshaft opinion
Thread Starter
Staging Lane
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 96
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From: Michigan
Low end torque camshaft opinion I have a 2000 Camaro ss with ported stock heads, ls6 intake, trutorq level 1 cam-219/224 .604/.609 115lsa, stock exhaust manifolds, stock bottom end, moser 9" w/wavetrac. I'm looking to change my cam again in hopes of getting more low end torque. I'm thinking low 200's for duration, high .500's lift and a 110 or 112lsa. I want all my power down low for the street. Any thoughts?
Hmmm.
I think you may want something closer to what you have now on a tighter LSA. I wouldn't jump down to low 200's duration. Although duration does affect wher eyou make power somewhat, all the specs combined create the power curve. The LS6 cam is a 204* intake duration, but it isn't like you couldn't do similar things with more duration.
And how low can you really use on the street? Is your car a manual or an auto?
And why haven't you considered some long tubes?
I think you may want something closer to what you have now on a tighter LSA. I wouldn't jump down to low 200's duration. Although duration does affect wher eyou make power somewhat, all the specs combined create the power curve. The LS6 cam is a 204* intake duration, but it isn't like you couldn't do similar things with more duration.
And how low can you really use on the street? Is your car a manual or an auto?
And why haven't you considered some long tubes?
Thread Starter
Staging Lane
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 96
Likes: 0
From: Michigan
It's a manual and I have read some posts by patrick g on low end torque cams. From what I read a cam around 216/220 on a 110lsa should be pretty torquey. I've even considered the smallest one comp makes-206/212 112lsa. I basically just drive it around town and back and forth to work. Never been to the track and probably never will. I just want that instant throttle response from idle and stop light to stop light. I could care less about the top end. I did have slp long tubes and 3in. y pipe on, I recently took them off due to too many scrapes, rust and eventually a couple of holes. It actually feels like I got more torque from putting the stock manifolds and 2 1/2 y pipe back on. If anything I might put shorties on in the future. The long tubes wreaked havoc on the o2's also and for the life of me could not tune that out with hptuners. I'm on my forth cam now. I had a 222/228 114, 226/230 112, 219/224 115, and the stock cam. Sometimes I think I could have saved a ton of money if I just left the stock one in but whats the fun in that. So do you think the cam I have now but on a 110 or 112 would satisfy my hunger for more torque? Thanks for the response haz matt. Mike
Ok. Yeah I understand the LT thing, it took a little while before I got mine adjusted so they hardly every scrape. they are Dynatech though.
A lot of the so called "torque" cams, or "truck" cams as they also masquerade as, are in the mid to high 2-teens, which is I suppose where you are talking about (thought you mean like real low 200's earlier). The only caveat I would consider is going wider on the exhaust split due to the stock manifolds, the only problem being as EVO gets earlier it will bleed off torque. I guess the power / torque balance is in question. Most stock manifold cams will have a lot of exhaust duration, which helps with the power. Like this one.
Yes I think on a tighter LSA the trutorq would feel punchier in the middle. Maybe call TR and ask what they would think about it. The 216/220 might not be bad either. EPS has the 218/222 that the name escapes me... that or maybe even 218/226 on a narrowish LSA. Comp also has one on LSL lobes that is 215/223 .604/.610 112LSA 107ICL that would probably also work. There is a nitrous cam from Cam Motion 216/228 .561/.561 LSA 114 ICL 110 that might be interesting.
A lot of the so called "torque" cams, or "truck" cams as they also masquerade as, are in the mid to high 2-teens, which is I suppose where you are talking about (thought you mean like real low 200's earlier). The only caveat I would consider is going wider on the exhaust split due to the stock manifolds, the only problem being as EVO gets earlier it will bleed off torque. I guess the power / torque balance is in question. Most stock manifold cams will have a lot of exhaust duration, which helps with the power. Like this one.
Yes I think on a tighter LSA the trutorq would feel punchier in the middle. Maybe call TR and ask what they would think about it. The 216/220 might not be bad either. EPS has the 218/222 that the name escapes me... that or maybe even 218/226 on a narrowish LSA. Comp also has one on LSL lobes that is 215/223 .604/.610 112LSA 107ICL that would probably also work. There is a nitrous cam from Cam Motion 216/228 .561/.561 LSA 114 ICL 110 that might be interesting.
Last edited by HAZ-Matt; Nov 11, 2011 at 01:44 PM.
Thread Starter
Staging Lane
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 96
Likes: 0
From: Michigan
Thanks for the advise. I didn't realize how much the exhaust duration helps with stock manifolds. I'm thinking 21x intake and mid 22x exhaust durations with under .600 lift. on a 110 or 108lsa. I'd like to keep the lift between .550 and .580. I just don't like the annoying valvetrain noise of aggressive lobes and ramp rates that comes with it even if they do add a little power. Hopefully this type of cam will be what i'm looking for so I don't have to change it again next year. I just don't know what lsa to go with-110lsa-110icl or 110lsa-106icl or 108lsa-108icl or 108lsa-106icl. Thats what I don't understand. Which one will provide me with the most down low and midrange. Thanks again for the help.
I don't think you can settle on an ideal LSA until you know what you are choosing for intake and exhaust duration. And obsessing over a few degrees probably isn't going to be a dramatic difference.
To be clear about LSA though, it doesn't exactly shift the torque lower, it typically builds it faster and to a higher peak, and it falls off faster. The intake, and to a smaller extent exhaust, duration are going to have a bigger role in determining what RPM the torque peak is at. Advancing the cam, which opens the intake valve earlier and closes it earlier, will shift it a little lower... part of the reason most of the shelf grinds have default advance in them.
Your desired lift is going to start narrowing it down. There are some lobes with decent lift that are supposedly quiet like the EPS lobes and Comp's LXL lobes. I'm running out of the amateurish advice I can give, so you might be at the point where talking to a sponsor is the way to go.
If you didn't have a cam and asked for a decent torque cam, something sort of similar to 218/226 LSA111 might be a good rec. It would still have 0 degrees overlap at .050" so it would probably not be too hard to live with. That's sort of like the EPS "Truck Torque 2" but the shelf grind is on a 115 I think. But something in the same ballpark from whichever vendor you like I would otherwise think would work out. Unfortunately it sounds somewhat similar to what you have right now. I don't really know how much of an improvement you could make dropping the intake duration and the lift. Sort of why I thought maybe narrowing the duration would help it "feel" a little bit better in the mid range. Who knows, maybe something like Cam Motion's 212/218 .561/.561 LSA112 ICL108 would be to your liking. :shrug:
To be clear about LSA though, it doesn't exactly shift the torque lower, it typically builds it faster and to a higher peak, and it falls off faster. The intake, and to a smaller extent exhaust, duration are going to have a bigger role in determining what RPM the torque peak is at. Advancing the cam, which opens the intake valve earlier and closes it earlier, will shift it a little lower... part of the reason most of the shelf grinds have default advance in them.
Your desired lift is going to start narrowing it down. There are some lobes with decent lift that are supposedly quiet like the EPS lobes and Comp's LXL lobes. I'm running out of the amateurish advice I can give, so you might be at the point where talking to a sponsor is the way to go.
If you didn't have a cam and asked for a decent torque cam, something sort of similar to 218/226 LSA111 might be a good rec. It would still have 0 degrees overlap at .050" so it would probably not be too hard to live with. That's sort of like the EPS "Truck Torque 2" but the shelf grind is on a 115 I think. But something in the same ballpark from whichever vendor you like I would otherwise think would work out. Unfortunately it sounds somewhat similar to what you have right now. I don't really know how much of an improvement you could make dropping the intake duration and the lift. Sort of why I thought maybe narrowing the duration would help it "feel" a little bit better in the mid range. Who knows, maybe something like Cam Motion's 212/218 .561/.561 LSA112 ICL108 would be to your liking. :shrug:
Last edited by HAZ-Matt; Nov 11, 2011 at 03:18 PM.
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I'd look at something along the lines of these:
W/LT headers:
215(.604" w/lsl) intake, and 222(.602" w/lxl) exhaust, 111-112 lsa w/3* to 4* advance.
W/stock manifolds:
215(.604" w/lsl) intake, and 226(.605" w/lxl) exhaust, 111-112 lsa w/3* to 4* advance.
I would also consider contacting Geoff at EPS, Pat G, and PredatorZ, and see what they recommend.
FYI, You can get the ceramic coated BBK LT hdrs and ORY-pipe for about $500, they fit great, and you won't lose any ground clearance with them!
W/LT headers:
215(.604" w/lsl) intake, and 222(.602" w/lxl) exhaust, 111-112 lsa w/3* to 4* advance.
W/stock manifolds:
215(.604" w/lsl) intake, and 226(.605" w/lxl) exhaust, 111-112 lsa w/3* to 4* advance.
I would also consider contacting Geoff at EPS, Pat G, and PredatorZ, and see what they recommend.
FYI, You can get the ceramic coated BBK LT hdrs and ORY-pipe for about $500, they fit great, and you won't lose any ground clearance with them!
Last edited by 99Bluz28; Nov 11, 2011 at 03:59 PM.
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Verdad Gallardo Where is the LXL lobe info published, just out of curiosity? I tried to look in a Comp lobe list online and it must be old because I didn't see them, even though I know they have been in existence for a while now.
At least there is something out there. I try to collect some of this stuff and put it in the VE / Cam spreadsheet to easily compare them.
At any rate, back to the topic at hand I suppose.
http://www.texas-speed.com/p-161-com...-camshaft.aspx
We offer the LXL and many other lobe families on our custom grind cams It lists the duration @.050" and valve lift with a 1.7:1 rocker ratio inside that link.
We offer the LXL and many other lobe families on our custom grind cams
It lists the duration @.050" and valve lift with a 1.7:1 rocker ratio inside that link.
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My cam is similar to yours, but with a wider split. Just thought I'd post so you have another reference point. I'm running stock manifolds and I'm happy with the low end. (387whp, 374wtq) Mods and dyno below for your reference. More pics including cam card in my garage. Best of luck!
Vehicle:
2001 Chevrolet Camaro SS, M6
Engine Modifications:
Intake Lid
AIR system deleted
Descreened MAF
25% Underdrive pulley
160° Thermostat
Camshaft: Comp Cams LSL lobes, 215/227 115 LSA +2 advance
Cylinder heads: Stock unmilled 243 heads, 1.7 ratio rockers
Head gaskets: .040” Cometic
DCR estimate: 8.65:1
Exhaust Modifications:
3” I-pipe with single 3” Borla XR1 high-flow muffler, single 3.5” exit ("1 out the left"), stock 2001 exhaust manifolds, cats & Y-pipe
Dynojet SAE:
Vehicle:
2001 Chevrolet Camaro SS, M6
Engine Modifications:
Intake Lid
AIR system deleted
Descreened MAF
25% Underdrive pulley
160° Thermostat
Camshaft: Comp Cams LSL lobes, 215/227 115 LSA +2 advance
Cylinder heads: Stock unmilled 243 heads, 1.7 ratio rockers
Head gaskets: .040” Cometic
DCR estimate: 8.65:1
Exhaust Modifications:
3” I-pipe with single 3” Borla XR1 high-flow muffler, single 3.5” exit ("1 out the left"), stock 2001 exhaust manifolds, cats & Y-pipe
Dynojet SAE:
TECH Enthusiast
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 627
Likes: 4
From: Miami, FL
Neat link. Thanks for posting it.
Doing this in my head more or less bc I don't have my sheet that does it for me on my laptop
219/224 .604/.609 115LSA -> -8.5* overlap @ .050" The TrueTorq. There is still some wiggle room to narrow it, but probably dropping the intake duration to get earlier IVC is probably a little better. 113LSA would be -4.5.
215/223 .604/.610 112LSA 107ICL -> -5* overlap @ .050"
216/228 .561/.561 114LSA 110ICL -> -6* overlap @ .050"
212/218 .561/.561 112LSA 108ICL -> -9* overlap @ .050"
218/226 .595/.598 113LSA -> -4* overlap @ .050"
214/226 .600/.595 113LSA -> -6* overlap @ .050"
I posted those first three above previous posts. The next is the actual specs of the EPS Truck Torque 2, the last is the intake from the Truck Torque 1 with the exhaust of the Truck Torque 2. I don't know IVC's offhand.
Doing this in my head more or less bc I don't have my sheet that does it for me on my laptop
219/224 .604/.609 115LSA -> -8.5* overlap @ .050" The TrueTorq. There is still some wiggle room to narrow it, but probably dropping the intake duration to get earlier IVC is probably a little better. 113LSA would be -4.5.
215/223 .604/.610 112LSA 107ICL -> -5* overlap @ .050"
216/228 .561/.561 114LSA 110ICL -> -6* overlap @ .050"
212/218 .561/.561 112LSA 108ICL -> -9* overlap @ .050"
218/226 .595/.598 113LSA -> -4* overlap @ .050"
214/226 .600/.595 113LSA -> -6* overlap @ .050"
I posted those first three above previous posts. The next is the actual specs of the EPS Truck Torque 2, the last is the intake from the Truck Torque 1 with the exhaust of the Truck Torque 2. I don't know IVC's offhand.
Yeah, my bad it is the 2007 list. I was thinking of the LSL lobe list in some of the 2011 info on the Comp site.
Thread Starter
Staging Lane
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 96
Likes: 0
From: Michigan
Thanks for all of the suggestions. Some of the cams you guys are suggesting are very similar to what I have now. Maybe there isn't a point in changing it if I can't gain more down low. I just figured there was more low end torque to be had but maybe i'm just kidding myself and from what I have read in the past the stock cam is hard to beat for low end torque. Between searching online and emailing cam companies I've heard conflicting suggestions on what lsa to go with. It seems like I would need a lower intake duration like 20x,21x and mid 21x exhaust duration. But i've heard to go with a 110-112lsa with some advance and i've heard to go with a wider lsa like 115-117. So far i'm on my fourth cam. I've had stock, 222/228 .581/.588 114+2, 226/230 .575/595 112 and the trutorq. All I want is a cam with excellent street manners and more torque than stock. Its been so long since I was running the stock cam I can't remember how much it pulled down low. Sorry if i'm being a pain in the ***. I'm just really picky. I appreciate all of your help.
The cheapest way to gain a little torque would be to take your heads off an have them milled .020-.030" and get your compression over 11:1. You won't gain much torque down low (maybe 10-15 ftlbs) but that isn't really much of a seat of the pants gain. Honestly to actually feel torquey you'd need more cubes or a supercharger. Another seat of the pants mod you could do would be a set of 4.56 gears, those are a blast with a 6 speed on the street.
When I installed my ported fast 85 I noticed right away that throttle response and torque improved everywhere, even down low around 2000 rpm. I made 365 rwtq @ 3000 rpm and 400 rwtq @ 3800 which I felt was really good numbers for what I had. If I remember correctly I gained 33 rwhp / 25 ftlbs over my LS6 intake.
Found my graph, its bolt ons vs head cam ls6 intake vs head cam fast + underdrive
When I installed my ported fast 85 I noticed right away that throttle response and torque improved everywhere, even down low around 2000 rpm. I made 365 rwtq @ 3000 rpm and 400 rwtq @ 3800 which I felt was really good numbers for what I had. If I remember correctly I gained 33 rwhp / 25 ftlbs over my LS6 intake.
Found my graph, its bolt ons vs head cam ls6 intake vs head cam fast + underdrive
Last edited by Nitroused383; Nov 14, 2011 at 08:05 AM.
