"Professionally Spec'd cams" where are they?
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From: The Confederacy
"Professionally Spec'd LS1 cams" where are they? I've spent the better part of my days at work reading thru literally thousands of posts on this board and several others in relation to camshaft design. After absorbing all of this information and browsing over my notes that I have taken... I realized something. There are several diehard supporters of "choosing correct valve events" for the Gen III engines and selecting the proper cam based on that criteria. Now, a number of these people will sell you a cam they "spec out"... well, during all of my reading I never really came across any results from these "paid consultant spec'd" cams. Don't take this as a bash or trying to stir something up, it just strikes me as odd, that if these people were as good at spec'ing cams as they would lead me to belive.. then wouldn't these cams be the "buzz" right now? Has anyone ever used the custom cam services? What was your results? What is everyones REAL opinion on the black art of valve events? I think you probably already know mine 
Last edited by gomer; Mar 17, 2004 at 01:21 PM.
I have wondered the same thing. The few places that I have seen that spec cams based on every bit of knowledge under the sun about your particular setup, seem to specialize in Ford 5.0s or regular old SBCs, and, IMO, I would trust a LS1 specific shop (FMS, LG, MTI, TSP, etc) to spec out a cam based on what they have seen and tried rather than on a hunch or a mathematical calculation. I know that LG tried 3 or 4 grinds before the "real" G5X3 was out. Little differences can make or break a cam. The one time I read about someone using one of those "specialists", based on his mods (head flow, gear, weight, transmission ratio, displacement, head volume, compression, etc), and after all that the "recommendation" was something like a 232/234 or something like that, nothing exotic like some would have thought. I was half expecting a 21x/24x split, or something extreme like that.....
I have heard some of Cam Motions recommendations for some stuff, and its unique, I'll say that. Weather it ends up working or not remains to be seen.
Shawn
I have heard some of Cam Motions recommendations for some stuff, and its unique, I'll say that. Weather it ends up working or not remains to be seen.
Shawn
Gomer,
I would be happy to give references. I have no problem with that. I think Flowtech would also. Check out www.corral.net Buddy Rawls is another one who is very good at this. I don't sell to the public, but if you would like some opinions on custom cams compared to "cam company recommendations" here is a few of my shops I do "custom" work for:
Midwest Motorsports
Brett Meier owner 800 262 5033
Performance Unlimited
Marty Hanshaw 954 438 0237
Kar Kare
Roger 318 793 2260
Gary Watson Racing
Gary 409 753 2370
Mohr Performance
Chris 270 542 8700
These vary from circle track to drag engine builders. Some have dyno comparisons, all have track champions. It's like one of them once told me, "first pays a hell of alot more then 10th".
Chris
I would be happy to give references. I have no problem with that. I think Flowtech would also. Check out www.corral.net Buddy Rawls is another one who is very good at this. I don't sell to the public, but if you would like some opinions on custom cams compared to "cam company recommendations" here is a few of my shops I do "custom" work for:
Midwest Motorsports
Brett Meier owner 800 262 5033
Performance Unlimited
Marty Hanshaw 954 438 0237
Kar Kare
Roger 318 793 2260
Gary Watson Racing
Gary 409 753 2370
Mohr Performance
Chris 270 542 8700
These vary from circle track to drag engine builders. Some have dyno comparisons, all have track champions. It's like one of them once told me, "first pays a hell of alot more then 10th".
Chris
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From: The Confederacy
Originally Posted by Cstraub
Gomer,
I would be happy to give references. I have no problem with that. I think Flowtech would also. Check out www.corral.net Buddy Rawls is another one who is very good at this. I don't sell to the public, but if you would like some opinions on custom cams compared to "cam company recommendations" here is a few of my shops I do "custom" work for:
Midwest Motorsports
Brett Meier owner 800 262 5033
Performance Unlimited
Marty Hanshaw 954 438 0237
Kar Kare
Roger 318 793 2260
Gary Watson Racing
Gary 409 753 2370
Mohr Performance
Chris 270 542 8700
These vary from circle track to drag engine builders. Some have dyno comparisons, all have track champions. It's like one of them once told me, "first pays a hell of alot more then 10th".
Chris
I would be happy to give references. I have no problem with that. I think Flowtech would also. Check out www.corral.net Buddy Rawls is another one who is very good at this. I don't sell to the public, but if you would like some opinions on custom cams compared to "cam company recommendations" here is a few of my shops I do "custom" work for:
Midwest Motorsports
Brett Meier owner 800 262 5033
Performance Unlimited
Marty Hanshaw 954 438 0237
Kar Kare
Roger 318 793 2260
Gary Watson Racing
Gary 409 753 2370
Mohr Performance
Chris 270 542 8700
These vary from circle track to drag engine builders. Some have dyno comparisons, all have track champions. It's like one of them once told me, "first pays a hell of alot more then 10th".
Chris
Launching!
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I posted a similar opinion on this as it was my conclusion that choosing a cam by valve events is gonna be hard for an individual to do because you can't base the decision on facts or evidence. I would say that a shop that installs a lot of ls1 cams and dynotunes em would know what valve events work best and probably are not gonna share that info. Some have said that theories from other platforms (ford 302) hold true for the ls1 but i have seen little proof either in favor of this or against it. I studied the valve events before i bought my FMS f11 but it didn't help me much except to give me an understanding of whats changing in my valvetrain.
Launching!
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From: Cayman Islands
An excellent thread Gomer. I too have been wondering this and I have held off from buying a cam, etc until some more specific results are known on these "specific to application/combo cams".
Hopefully, one of the cam guru's will post on this...in more layman's terms..
for me
Tony
Hopefully, one of the cam guru's will post on this...in more layman's terms..
for me
Tony
You won't catch me referring folks to Mustang cam guys, I only refer folks to companies that have LS1 stuff out there that works.
With our community you can find different combos and base ideas off of them.
With our community you can find different combos and base ideas off of them.
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Futral Motorsports can make you basically a cam for anything you would want, they are a sponser here, I know ALOT of people have picked up very good number switching to his cams from "others" cams
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From: The Confederacy
Originally Posted by 00REDZ28
Futral Motorsports can make you basically a cam for anything you would want, they are a sponser here, I know ALOT of people have picked up very good number switching to his cams from "others" cams
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Gomer, I know you have spent time, energy, and much thought on the research you've done. Let me direct you to an article in "GM High-Tech Performance" magazine that helped me better understand a lot of the whys and wherefores of event timing. I've done a lot of "sbc-ing" over the last 30-35 years and so I've spec'ed a lot of cams (some worked, some were disappointments). Here it is:
GM High-Tech Performance, October 2003, "Perfect Timing, Affordable High-Tech Solutions for Optimal LS1/LS6 Events" by David Vizard, p48.
In the article he mentions 3 different custom suppliers, with their track record and why he considers them so good at what they do. It's certainly not the definitive work, but it sure is worth the read!
GM High-Tech Performance, October 2003, "Perfect Timing, Affordable High-Tech Solutions for Optimal LS1/LS6 Events" by David Vizard, p48.
In the article he mentions 3 different custom suppliers, with their track record and why he considers them so good at what they do. It's certainly not the definitive work, but it sure is worth the read!
An engine is an "air pump". Period. Wether it is single hitter Brigs to a 3 stage turbo Alis Chambers 6cyl tractor engine. If everyone is brand specific, then I guess TEA needs to stop porting Ford heads and only do LS1's. Roush needs to stop putting GM crate engines together. Both I would venture to say know what to do and how to do it. Thats why they are doing it.
Bottom line any "specialist" when supplied with the combination, flow numbers, intended operating range, should be able to supply a much more usable power band.
Chris
Bottom line any "specialist" when supplied with the combination, flow numbers, intended operating range, should be able to supply a much more usable power band.
Chris
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From: The Confederacy
Originally Posted by Cstraub
An engine is an "air pump". Period. Wether it is single hitter Brigs to a 3 stage turbo Alis Chambers 6cyl tractor engine. If everyone is brand specific, then I guess TEA needs to stop porting Ford heads and only do LS1's. Roush needs to stop putting GM crate engines together. Both I would venture to say know what to do and how to do it. Thats why they are doing it.
Bottom line any "specialist" when supplied with the combination, flow numbers, intended operating range, should be able to supply a much more usable power band.
Chris
Bottom line any "specialist" when supplied with the combination, flow numbers, intended operating range, should be able to supply a much more usable power band.
Chris
So far we have no results
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From: Working in the shop 24/7
Originally Posted by Pro Stock John
You won't catch me referring folks to Mustang cam guys, I only refer folks to companies that have LS1 stuff out there that works.
With our community you can find different combos and base ideas off of them.
With our community you can find different combos and base ideas off of them.
Without starting a war here PSJ...
Just because a particular "vendor" happens to advertize on this site, it does NOT automatically make them a "expert" in the field.
As I mentioned in this forum before, I still believe all these "shelf-type" camshafts being sold, are nothing more than a "guess" as to what will work for the "average" enthusiast and not specific enough to justify the effort to install them. This marketing concept is similar to what Anderson Ford does for Fords, a mass produced group of camshafts, based on a generalization of a few basic combinations. I do see where the "shelf cams" sales pitch ideas are coming from, the immediate gratification of a customer, but I feel strongly that the one week wait for a TRUE "custom" designed camshaft is a much better way to go for best performance.
Another thing, (and you can correct me if I'm wrong), what I'm getting from your comments is since I sell/design a lot of Gen1 and Gen2 GM, Small and Big Block Ford, even Honda and Mopar camshafts, I am not "qualified" to design a proper LS1 camshaft? Moreso, just because I don't spend the $150 per month on a banner? Again... correct me if I'm ***uming the post incorrectly..
Your post has me wondering why I brag about this site as being much better than the typical threads by some of the "Corral-Stangnet" idiots.
Ed
A large number of the shops on the right side have installed and dynoed, and raced a large number of combinations. There is not a lot of guesswork going on in our five year old scene, we are at a refining stage at this point. Like your sig says Ed, stuff has been track tested and proven. I'm not trying to stir up crap either but I have a lot of respect for the shops that have tried a lot of combos and tested them like Thunder, Speed Inc., TSP, Cartek, LGM, FMS, Rapid, and MTI (just to rattle off a few).
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From: The Confederacy
Originally Posted by EDC
Without starting a war here PSJ...
Just because a particular "vendor" happens to advertize on this site, it does NOT automatically make them a "expert" in the field.
As I mentioned in this forum before, I still believe all these "shelf-type" camshafts being sold, are nothing more than a "guess" as to what will work for the "average" enthusiast and not specific enough to justify the effort to install them. This marketing concept is similar to what Anderson Ford does for Fords, a mass produced group of camshafts, based on a generalization of a few basic combinations. I do see where the "shelf cams" sales pitch ideas are coming from, the immediate gratification of a customer, but I feel strongly that the one week wait for a TRUE "custom" designed camshaft is a much better way to go for best performance.
Another thing, (and you can correct me if I'm wrong), what I'm getting from your comments is since I sell/design a lot of Gen1 and Gen2 GM, Small and Big Block Ford, even Honda and Mopar camshafts, I am not "qualified" to design a proper LS1 camshaft? Moreso, just because I don't spend the $150 per month on a banner? Again... correct me if I'm ***uming the post incorrectly..
Your post has me wondering why I brag about this site as being much better than the typical threads by some of the "Corral-Stangnet" idiots.
Ed
You state above that the cams we are using now are "shelf" cams and aren't really worth the effort to install them, those comments are on par with what I was expecting you to come into this tread with... BUT just like your sig says "Prove it". If what you ( or anyone else for that matter ) are offering is substantially better, like you claim, then why is it that I never read ANYTHING about a FTI "Ed Curtiss cam" in the Drag, Dyno, Internal, etc sections? Please don't get enraged over this, all I want to see is the proof that these cams are as good as you and some others claim they are.
Scott
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From: Working in the shop 24/7
Originally Posted by gomer
First of all Ed, don't take this as an attack on you or meant to be negative in any way... I'm just pointing out something that I continually see here.
You state above that the cams we are using now are "shelf" cams and aren't really worth the effort to install them, those comments are on par with what I was expecting you to come into this tread with... BUT just like your sig says "Prove it". If what you ( or anyone else for that matter ) are offering is substantially better, like you claim, then why is it that I never read ANYTHING about a FTI "Ed Curtiss cam" in the Drag, Dyno, Internal, etc sections? Please don't get enraged over this, all I want to see is the proof that these cams are as good as you and some others claim they are.
Scott
You state above that the cams we are using now are "shelf" cams and aren't really worth the effort to install them, those comments are on par with what I was expecting you to come into this tread with... BUT just like your sig says "Prove it". If what you ( or anyone else for that matter ) are offering is substantially better, like you claim, then why is it that I never read ANYTHING about a FTI "Ed Curtiss cam" in the Drag, Dyno, Internal, etc sections? Please don't get enraged over this, all I want to see is the proof that these cams are as good as you and some others claim they are.
Scott
I can't tell you exactly why you aren't hearing/reading more about the LS1 combinations I work with, but not everyone I know wants to spend their time posting in an internet forum. Cripe, I only get into these forums when an Email directs me to them or a customer calls!
The only reasoning I can think of (at this nanosecond) as to why you may not see much on what I'm doing for the LS1 gang, may be because, just like the Ford and Mopar guys I've been working with over many years, they aren't about to give away too many "insider" secrets for their success.
When I first developed my obscure camshaft philosophies, every Ford/Mopar/GM "regular" stated I was all wet and doing things totally wrong. I remember one example where the shop owner "refused" to install a cam I specced for a customer stating "all Ford EFI cams need to be at a 112* lobe separation"! A lot of enthusiasts take the safe route and even some "copy-cat" attitudes just to avoid controversy. However, when you do, you get the same results as everyone else. I do not agree with that credo.
When that Mustang shop owner knocked my cam design, he was just putting on the "blinders" to new ideas that were outside his little world. Needless to say, after seeing the results both on the dyno and at the track with that "wrong camshaft", that same shop owner has been purchasing a ton of Ford grinds and most recently, a few LS1 camshafts from me. His tunnel vision was cured!
As for my LS1 database, I have designed and sold quite a few "custom" camshafts to both individuals and LS1 specific shops that have requested them. These people are very pleased with the performance of these profiles when installed in there particular application. Each cam was developed and then "designed" for the requirements the customer wanted, whether street, race or whatever. Just because they don't spend their lives on the internet, bragging about dyno number or track times, does not mean these people aren't pleased with their cars nor their successes be discounted.
The "issues" I have with some of the existing LS1 profiles are the same issues I have had right along with the "Alphabet" cam Ford or the "Purple" camshaft Mopar guys. It's been engraved in their heads that "these" are the only cams to use, in spite of the variety of combinations each person had.
You see, it's not the cams themselves, it's the application of these camshafts. For example, the chances I would use an M6 cam profile in an A4 combo is extremely remote yet when I scope out the sigs, I see the same cam profile in many totally different combinations, including M6 and A4 peices.
Maybe it's just a "familiarity" with the same old, same old that makes people feel comfortable, but I choose to push the limits of every component to its max, especially the camshaft parameters.
Look here, I don't care if the customer spends their hard earned money with me or an advertizer shop, it's camshaft "theory" we are discussing here and I'm going to voice my opinion. If my viewpoint is assumed bias because of the FTI link in the sig, consider it gone.
Ed
Originally Posted by gomer
First of all Ed, don't take this as an attack on you or meant to be negative in any way... I'm just pointing out something that I continually see here.
You state above that the cams we are using now are "shelf" cams and aren't really worth the effort to install them, those comments are on par with what I was expecting you to come into this tread with... BUT just like your sig says "Prove it". If what you ( or anyone else for that matter ) are offering is substantially better, like you claim, then why is it that I never read ANYTHING about a FTI "Ed Curtiss cam" in the Drag, Dyno, Internal, etc sections? Please don't get enraged over this, all I want to see is the proof that these cams are as good as you and some others claim they are.
Scott
You state above that the cams we are using now are "shelf" cams and aren't really worth the effort to install them, those comments are on par with what I was expecting you to come into this tread with... BUT just like your sig says "Prove it". If what you ( or anyone else for that matter ) are offering is substantially better, like you claim, then why is it that I never read ANYTHING about a FTI "Ed Curtiss cam" in the Drag, Dyno, Internal, etc sections? Please don't get enraged over this, all I want to see is the proof that these cams are as good as you and some others claim they are.
Scott
Ed, that seems like a very bold statement when Thunder Racing has made ~450rwhp with a cam only set up. Are you sure the guys over there>>>>>>>>>>> don't have cams that are worth installing? I'd really like to see you step up and prove that statement with facts and data. The large number of documented cases where cars gain ~30 to 45 rwhp with a cam swap prove the swap was worth the effort IMO. I can dig up a graph of a ~25rwhp gain with an LS6 cam vs LS1 peak to show it's worthwhile. Likewise, on the top end in some places the LS6 was almost 50rwhp ahead of the stock cam. This is about as off the shelf as it gets.
If one orders a TR-224 etc one has a good idea of what to expect because other folks have shared their results. I think most of us want to have a specific idea of what to expect with one of these "FTI" or other custom cams.
Ed can you share a few dyno graphs of a LS1/LS6 with one of your custom spec'd cams? Not asking for your secrets etc. If they are as good as they sound the entire forum will be beat a path to your door for one of these new "Ed" spec'd cams.
If the results looking promising, I might even lead the charge since I'd probably like to run something other than an off the shelf MMS229 on my new LS1 for the Camaro.
BTW - My T/A has a custom SRP spec'd 224 XE-R in it. With over 350rwtq @2800 & 380rwtq @ 4000 rpm, on a set up that's fairly old and tame for what is in fashion today. Back in 2002 these were excellent torque numbers. I know there really is something to specing the correct cam for the set up and like most of this forum I'm open to consider it again, provided I know a little more about it.
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Who the hell do you think grinds Futrals cams??? Cam Motion. Cam Motion also grinds GTP's. I'm sure there are others. They are well known in the Ford circles for grinding good cams. According to most of the logic on this board, they shouldn't know squat about grinding a cam for an LS1...but look at what they are doing for Futral!
I can see where Ed is coming from. I'm that way too. If I see someone make xxx hp, I try to make more. I don't want what everyone else has or is using. I didn't think to call Ed when shopping for cams, but I may try one and see if the car picks up.
I can see where Ed is coming from. I'm that way too. If I see someone make xxx hp, I try to make more. I don't want what everyone else has or is using. I didn't think to call Ed when shopping for cams, but I may try one and see if the car picks up.
Last edited by turbo'd stang; Mar 17, 2004 at 09:04 PM.
Great thread. From what I've seen some of the custom cam cars don't frequent the internet as much (or measure their sticks before testing), and some of the known combos are only "known" because of the internet. It's a paradox as complex as **** vs personality.