500rwhp possible on stock bottom end??
01-31-2012, 01:42 PM
#1
500rwhp possible on stock bottom end?? 2000 WS6 M6
I want to try and keep this all motor.
this is what the car had when I bought it.
slp 1 3/4 lt headers, y pipe, lid, and clutch
granatelli maf
magnaflow muffler and pipes
stock motor.
what ive ordered so far and will be ordering
lingenfelter gt 1 cam
comp dual valve spring kit
lsxr 102mm intake
102mm TB
VOLANT cai
1 7/8 headers
New heads ( haven't decided yet )
possibly injectors
underdrive pulley
Moser 12 bolt
new plugs
msd coil packs
ls7 clutch
what else would I need to make 500rwhp? Amy suggestions on heads would be great.
maybe a totally different setup?? I want to stay away from no2 and turbos and such if I can. any advice is greatly appreciated.
I want to try and keep this all motor.
this is what the car had when I bought it.
slp 1 3/4 lt headers, y pipe, lid, and clutch
granatelli maf
magnaflow muffler and pipes
stock motor.
what ive ordered so far and will be ordering
lingenfelter gt 1 cam
comp dual valve spring kit
lsxr 102mm intake
102mm TB
VOLANT cai
1 7/8 headers
New heads ( haven't decided yet )
possibly injectors
underdrive pulley
Moser 12 bolt
new plugs
msd coil packs
ls7 clutch
what else would I need to make 500rwhp? Amy suggestions on heads would be great.
maybe a totally different setup?? I want to stay away from no2 and turbos and such if I can. any advice is greatly appreciated.
01-31-2012, 02:49 PM
#3
No offense but your thinking about 500 RWHP with a 218 @ .050 camshaft??
There needs to be a sticky on this topic (what's really needed to generate a 500 RWHP stock bottom end 346).
There is seriously a hundred threads discussing this.....search is your friend here but to sum it up it needs to be a spare no expense optimized build (killer heads, ported FAST, optimized CAI and exhaust) with an aggressive camshaft, stout compression, fly cut or aftermarket pistons, and the right tune. Lighter weight clutch/flywheel helps alot.....and it wont be much fun to drive at low RPM....it will have cam surge and be a very "peaky" engine with most of the fun happening from 4500-7000 RPM.
Your better off targeting 50 RWHP less for a less expensive better all around combination. If your really keen on the 500 RWHP goal (many before you have tried and failed btw) you need to get yourself more educated on what's really involved and what its like to even drive an engine with this type of personality and power curve. Its very lazy on the bottom and needs RPM before it starts making some serious steam.....in a 3700 lb car its not an ideal street combo unless you realize what your getting into.
Not trying to be negative....it can be done but its difficult to accomplish, expensive, and at the end of the day might not be as "fun" as the number itself would lead you to believe. The engine itself becomes very single focused.....if its mainly a track car thats a good thing.....if it's mainly a street car you might want to consider something less aggressive or larger displacement which is really the key to a killer N/A set-up in a heavy street/strip application.
-Tony
There needs to be a sticky on this topic (what's really needed to generate a 500 RWHP stock bottom end 346).
There is seriously a hundred threads discussing this.....search is your friend here but to sum it up it needs to be a spare no expense optimized build (killer heads, ported FAST, optimized CAI and exhaust) with an aggressive camshaft, stout compression, fly cut or aftermarket pistons, and the right tune. Lighter weight clutch/flywheel helps alot.....and it wont be much fun to drive at low RPM....it will have cam surge and be a very "peaky" engine with most of the fun happening from 4500-7000 RPM.
Your better off targeting 50 RWHP less for a less expensive better all around combination. If your really keen on the 500 RWHP goal (many before you have tried and failed btw) you need to get yourself more educated on what's really involved and what its like to even drive an engine with this type of personality and power curve. Its very lazy on the bottom and needs RPM before it starts making some serious steam.....in a 3700 lb car its not an ideal street combo unless you realize what your getting into.
Not trying to be negative....it can be done but its difficult to accomplish, expensive, and at the end of the day might not be as "fun" as the number itself would lead you to believe. The engine itself becomes very single focused.....if its mainly a track car thats a good thing.....if it's mainly a street car you might want to consider something less aggressive or larger displacement which is really the key to a killer N/A set-up in a heavy street/strip application.
-Tony
01-31-2012, 03:08 PM
#4
No offense but your thinking about 500 RWHP with a 218 @ .050 camshaft??
There needs to be a sticky on this topic (what's really needed to generate a 500 RWHP stock bottom end 346).
There is seriously a hundred threads discussing this.....search is your friend here but to sum it up it needs to be a spare no expense optimized build (killer heads, ported FAST, optimized CAI and exhaust) with an aggressive camshaft, stout compression, fly cut or aftermarket pistons, and the right tune. Lighter weight clutch/flywheel helps alot.....and it wont be much fun to drive at low RPM....it will have cam surge and be a very "peaky" engine with most of the fun happening from 4500-7000 RPM.
Your better off targeting 50 RWHP less for a less expensive better all around combination. If your really keen on the 500 RWHP goal (many before you have tried and failed btw) you need to get yourself more educated on what's really involved and what its like to even drive an engine with this type of personality and power curve. Its very lazy on the bottom and needs RPM before it starts making some serious steam.....in a 3700 lb car its not an ideal street combo unless you realize what your getting into.
Not trying to be negative....it can be done but its difficult to accomplish, expensive, and at the end of the day might not be as "fun" as the number itself would lead you to believe. The engine itself becomes very single focused.....if its mainly a track car thats a good thing.....if it's mainly a street car you might want to consider something less aggressive or larger displacement which is really the key to a killer N/A set-up in a heavy street/strip application.
-Tony
There needs to be a sticky on this topic (what's really needed to generate a 500 RWHP stock bottom end 346).
There is seriously a hundred threads discussing this.....search is your friend here but to sum it up it needs to be a spare no expense optimized build (killer heads, ported FAST, optimized CAI and exhaust) with an aggressive camshaft, stout compression, fly cut or aftermarket pistons, and the right tune. Lighter weight clutch/flywheel helps alot.....and it wont be much fun to drive at low RPM....it will have cam surge and be a very "peaky" engine with most of the fun happening from 4500-7000 RPM.
Your better off targeting 50 RWHP less for a less expensive better all around combination. If your really keen on the 500 RWHP goal (many before you have tried and failed btw) you need to get yourself more educated on what's really involved and what its like to even drive an engine with this type of personality and power curve. Its very lazy on the bottom and needs RPM before it starts making some serious steam.....in a 3700 lb car its not an ideal street combo unless you realize what your getting into.
Not trying to be negative....it can be done but its difficult to accomplish, expensive, and at the end of the day might not be as "fun" as the number itself would lead you to believe. The engine itself becomes very single focused.....if its mainly a track car thats a good thing.....if it's mainly a street car you might want to consider something less aggressive or larger displacement which is really the key to a killer N/A set-up in a heavy street/strip application.
-Tony
01-31-2012, 03:09 PM
#5
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search for a post from Pat G for a recipe and what is all involved in reaching 500hp. Like Tony said, it's not cheap or easy. BTW he played a key role in Pat reaching 500.
01-31-2012, 03:59 PM
#6
For 500 you want something around a G5x4, MS4, TRex etc. I also addressed your list for you
lingenfelter gt 1 cam-SELL
comp dual valve spring kit-May be ok, double check with a bigger cam
lsxr 102mm intake-Good, having Tony Mamo port it would make it even better
102mm TB-Good
VOLANT cai-Bad, sell this and buy an FTP 104mm lid and 100mm MAF of your choice
1 7/8 headers-Kind? You need ones with a merge spike and hvmcs to get the most out of it
New heads ( haven't decided yet )-AFRs or some heavily ported LS6s/5.3s, may need to flycut
possibly injectors- Get some LS2 style injectors from fic.com
underdrive pulley-good
Moser 12 bolt-good, will rob some power
new plugs-TR55s gapped at .04
msd coil packs-Send these back, there is no need, the stock coils can handle well over 1000 no problem
ls7 clutch-good
Also be sure to get some matching 3 inch true duals, Granatelli plug wires and you should be fine.
lingenfelter gt 1 cam-SELL
comp dual valve spring kit-May be ok, double check with a bigger cam
lsxr 102mm intake-Good, having Tony Mamo port it would make it even better
102mm TB-Good
VOLANT cai-Bad, sell this and buy an FTP 104mm lid and 100mm MAF of your choice
1 7/8 headers-Kind? You need ones with a merge spike and hvmcs to get the most out of it
New heads ( haven't decided yet )-AFRs or some heavily ported LS6s/5.3s, may need to flycut
possibly injectors- Get some LS2 style injectors from fic.com
underdrive pulley-good
Moser 12 bolt-good, will rob some power
new plugs-TR55s gapped at .04
msd coil packs-Send these back, there is no need, the stock coils can handle well over 1000 no problem
ls7 clutch-good
Also be sure to get some matching 3 inch true duals, Granatelli plug wires and you should be fine.
01-31-2012, 05:22 PM
#7
For 500 you want something around a G5x4, MS4, TRex etc. I also addressed your list for you
lingenfelter gt 1 cam-SELL
comp dual valve spring kit-May be ok, double check with a bigger cam
lsxr 102mm intake-Good, having Tony Mamo port it would make it even better
102mm TB-Good
VOLANT cai-Bad, sell this and buy an FTP 104mm lid and 100mm MAF of your choice
1 7/8 headers-Kind? You need ones with a merge spike and hvmcs to get the most out of it
New heads ( haven't decided yet )-AFRs or some heavily ported LS6s/5.3s, may need to flycut
possibly injectors- Get some LS2 style injectors from fic.com
underdrive pulley-good
Moser 12 bolt-good, will rob some power
new plugs-TR55s gapped at .04u
msd coil packs-Send these back, there is no need, the stock coils can handle well over 1000 no problem
ls7 clutch-good
Also be sure to get some matching 3 inch true duals, Granatelli plug wires and you should be fine.
lingenfelter gt 1 cam-SELL
comp dual valve spring kit-May be ok, double check with a bigger cam
lsxr 102mm intake-Good, having Tony Mamo port it would make it even better
102mm TB-Good
VOLANT cai-Bad, sell this and buy an FTP 104mm lid and 100mm MAF of your choice
1 7/8 headers-Kind? You need ones with a merge spike and hvmcs to get the most out of it
New heads ( haven't decided yet )-AFRs or some heavily ported LS6s/5.3s, may need to flycut
possibly injectors- Get some LS2 style injectors from fic.com
underdrive pulley-good
Moser 12 bolt-good, will rob some power
new plugs-TR55s gapped at .04u
msd coil packs-Send these back, there is no need, the stock coils can handle well over 1000 no problem
ls7 clutch-good
Also be sure to get some matching 3 inch true duals, Granatelli plug wires and you should be fine.
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01-31-2012, 05:47 PM
#8
For 500 you want something around a G5x4, MS4, TRex etc. I also addressed your list for you
lingenfelter gt 1 cam-SELL
comp dual valve spring kit-May be ok, double check with a bigger cam
lsxr 102mm intake-Good, having Tony Mamo port it would make it even better
102mm TB-Good
VOLANT cai-Bad, sell this and buy an FTP 104mm lid and 100mm MAF of your choice
1 7/8 headers-Kind? You need ones with a merge spike and hvmcs to get the most out of it
New heads ( haven't decided yet )-AFRs or some heavily ported LS6s/5.3s, may need to flycut
possibly injectors- Get some LS2 style injectors from fic.com
underdrive pulley-good
Moser 12 bolt-good, will rob some power
new plugs-TR55s gapped at .04
msd coil packs-Send these back, there is no need, the stock coils can handle well over 1000 no problem
ls7 clutch-good
Also be sure to get some matching 3 inch true duals, Granatelli plug wires and you should be fine.
lingenfelter gt 1 cam-SELL
comp dual valve spring kit-May be ok, double check with a bigger cam
lsxr 102mm intake-Good, having Tony Mamo port it would make it even better
102mm TB-Good
VOLANT cai-Bad, sell this and buy an FTP 104mm lid and 100mm MAF of your choice
1 7/8 headers-Kind? You need ones with a merge spike and hvmcs to get the most out of it
New heads ( haven't decided yet )-AFRs or some heavily ported LS6s/5.3s, may need to flycut
possibly injectors- Get some LS2 style injectors from fic.com
underdrive pulley-good
Moser 12 bolt-good, will rob some power
new plugs-TR55s gapped at .04
msd coil packs-Send these back, there is no need, the stock coils can handle well over 1000 no problem
ls7 clutch-good
Also be sure to get some matching 3 inch true duals, Granatelli plug wires and you should be fine.
I like your amendment to the OP's list with the exception of clutch choice IMO.
While I agree it will more than comfortably hold the power, its not really a true performance clutch in the sense of the word and in fact can rob a vehicle of responsiveness, power, and torque.
Truthfully its a 55 lb boat anchor IMO....swapping to a clutch/pressure plate assembly that's say 35 lbs (a 20 lb reduction in rotating mass!) will change the entire driving experience.....the engine responsiveness is dramatically enhanced and you will legitimately see a 12 - 14 RWHP increase (the power robbed by having to accelerate that extra 20 lb mass hanging off the end of the crank).
I have worked with RPS clutches and used my personal C5 for alot of clutch/flywheel related R&D.....not to mention have driven manual transmission hot rods for literally 30 years. Ive experienced and learned alot about clutch and flywheels and once you experience a well designed clutch with just the right amount of inertia, you wouldn't even consider an LS7 (or any other really heavy) clutch as an option.
Not to mention if 500 RWHP is really a goal your shooting for, giving up 10-15 RWHP from a heavy clutch would likely be a deal breaker.
-Tony
01-31-2012, 05:58 PM
#10
This is what I googled...
http://www.highhorseperformance.com/...l210055297.htm
Extensive engine dyno testing at Lingenfelter has produced some of the best street camshaft profiles available for the LS1, LS2, LS3, LS6 engines. The Lingenfelter GT1 camshaft was designed to produce excellent power with a aggressive or rough idle and is only suggested in six speed manual transmission equipped vehicles or automatic transmission applications with a loose torque converter.
This camshaft was designed to be used in LS1, LS2, LS3, LS6 350 CID - 427 CID applications. Spring & retainer upgrades are a must with this camshaft.
All Lingenfelter camshafts ground by Competition Cams to Lingenfelter specifications on induction hardened cores for exceptional durability and long life.
Duration@ .050- 218/229
Lift-.561"/.561"
Rocker- 1.7 rato
Centerline- 113
This camshaft was designed to be used in LS1, LS2, LS3, LS6 350 CID - 427 CID applications. Spring & retainer upgrades are a must with this camshaft.
All Lingenfelter camshafts ground by Competition Cams to Lingenfelter specifications on induction hardened cores for exceptional durability and long life.
Duration@ .050- 218/229
Lift-.561"/.561"
Rocker- 1.7 rato
Centerline- 113
01-31-2012, 06:25 PM
#11
I don't think you're looking at the right one...
This is what I googled...
http://www.highhorseperformance.com/...l210055297.htm
This is what I googled...
http://www.highhorseperformance.com/...l210055297.htm
http://www.lingenfelter.com/mm5/merc...gory_Code=C289
01-31-2012, 07:21 PM
#18
The intake duration is too small, by comparison the last guy on here to break 500, roadtrip120 did it on race gas. On pump gas he did 475 with a G5x4, TSP stage 2.5 5.3 heads, 6 speed, FAST 102 and 1 3/4 headers with a y pipe. That cam is 240/244 IIRC. With intake porting, the bigger headers and true duals he will get to 500, so you need more cam than that and talk to Mamo about heads
