Mods for high speed use. 6k+ rpm for 1 hour?
02-10-2012, 12:38 PM
#22
I dont even really know where to begin here. But I will throw you a few bits of advice.
Silver State isnt what it used to be. I'll bet the people on asking for your money from that organization didnt bother to mention that they have cut rumble strips down the middle of the road did they? That is something you might want to take into consideration before even doing this. They probably didnt mention that 2 very good people died last sept when thier front tires gave outand everything points directly at those new rumble strips NDOT put in.
Now if you dont plan on chopping it up with the big dogs and running in the SuperSport or Unlimited class, you should be fairly safe....maybe.
BEFORE, you start sinking a ton of money into making your motor survive at 6000 RPM (which BTW you wont be seeing for an hour unless you are running SS or UNL and even then you slow down for a little section called "the narrows"). You first have to make sure your car will pass all the safety regulations for the class you want to run.
Your first time out you will be limited to a 110mph average speed. Yup, 110 with a tech speed of 130mph. And on that road 130mph feels like 65mph on the freeway. Not only do you have to finish, you have to finish in good standing, meaning you dont break your tech speed and your car actually makes it to the finish line.
So for your first run, you will need: Brand new or near new tires that have the proper date codes on them. A working seat belt, SA 2010 helmet, gardening gloves, long sleeve shirt, boots and levi's. So pay the fee (cant remember what a touring class fee is any more its been to long since I have done that. Add to that the expense of getting there, staying in a hotel there, food, fuel and booze for 3 days. BTW, this is the CHEAP route. This is also the most comepative class hands down. Its for the people that cant afford a faster car or have an exotic they dont want to chop up to put a roll cage in.
After making your first run now you can step up to the 130mph average speed class with a 165mph tech. Now you need all the above mentioned safety gear but add a nomex fire suit, nomex gloves and at a minimum a roll bar with harness's. Now you have to start looking at cooling a few things like the trans and diff. Time to add coolers to both with pumps. About a grand each. And the entry fee is larger also.
After that run you can now run in the 150mph average speed class with a 165pmh tech speed. OK, other than the 110mph class, this is the most comepetive class in the event and usually the most amount of cars. Suprisingly a bone stock ls1/6 will do well in this class with minor mods, cam/heads, exhuast. You just have to keep everything cool. Unless you are running a corvette, you will need a full roll bar to run here. But now you have to keep your foot in it on the run. With a 165mph tech on a 150 target, you have to try and average as close to 165mph as possible to bank as much time as you can prior to the narrows. After the narrows, your cruising speed will be in the high 130's to low 140's trying to hit your target. So if you make it past that event in good standings, THEN you get a shot to run with the big dogs. But even in the 150 class the highest rpm you are going to see running 5th gear with a 3.40 (or close) gear is going to be about 3700-4600rpm IIRC.
The SS and UNL class is no ******* joke. You are putting your life on the line for an adrenaline fix. Ask me how I know, I'll tell you. Try cruising at 209mph and having your motor come apart on you like a hand grenade. You could have slipped a greased BB up my *** at that very second. To run at this level your car has to have a COMPLETE roll cage, on board fire system, fuel cell, highly reccomended HANS device, 3 layers of fire protection for your body, large radiator, trans cooler, diff cooler, oil coolers are not "options" in this class. Your suspension has to be tuned to a gnats ***. One **** up becuase you didnt dial in enough rebound and your next of kin is getting a phone call.
And unless you can push your car beyond 200mph on those 14 mile straights and have a sack big enough to keep your foot in it through the corners above 190mph dont show up if you want to be competative. Otherwise you are doing it just to say "I did it".
To get your BMW to even over 180mph at one of these events is going to take ALOT of HP and prep. You have the drag cd of a brick.
My best advice to you is 1)get the car running and prepped to run in the 110mph class. Dont spend a nickel more that you need to. A BONE STOCK LS1 WILL RUN 110 CLASS WITH NO ISSUES (as long as you know its running good). After doing that, see if its something you want to really get after. The financial commitment to run in the SS or UNL classes is ENOURMOUS. I had almost 80G's tied up in mine when it was finally tuned right and I felt safe enough to run it ragged. and that was just the car and didnt include trailoring it to an event, hotel/food/booze etc. Most UNL class cars have close to 200K tied up in them. If you wanted to do it REAL smart though, just wait till a UNL class racer sell his car and you can pick it up for about 30 grand. thats what a used UNL/SS car goes for. Turn key 200mph car.
Silver State isnt what it used to be. I'll bet the people on asking for your money from that organization didnt bother to mention that they have cut rumble strips down the middle of the road did they? That is something you might want to take into consideration before even doing this. They probably didnt mention that 2 very good people died last sept when thier front tires gave outand everything points directly at those new rumble strips NDOT put in.
Now if you dont plan on chopping it up with the big dogs and running in the SuperSport or Unlimited class, you should be fairly safe....maybe.
BEFORE, you start sinking a ton of money into making your motor survive at 6000 RPM (which BTW you wont be seeing for an hour unless you are running SS or UNL and even then you slow down for a little section called "the narrows"). You first have to make sure your car will pass all the safety regulations for the class you want to run.
Your first time out you will be limited to a 110mph average speed. Yup, 110 with a tech speed of 130mph. And on that road 130mph feels like 65mph on the freeway. Not only do you have to finish, you have to finish in good standing, meaning you dont break your tech speed and your car actually makes it to the finish line.
So for your first run, you will need: Brand new or near new tires that have the proper date codes on them. A working seat belt, SA 2010 helmet, gardening gloves, long sleeve shirt, boots and levi's. So pay the fee (cant remember what a touring class fee is any more its been to long since I have done that. Add to that the expense of getting there, staying in a hotel there, food, fuel and booze for 3 days. BTW, this is the CHEAP route. This is also the most comepative class hands down. Its for the people that cant afford a faster car or have an exotic they dont want to chop up to put a roll cage in.
After making your first run now you can step up to the 130mph average speed class with a 165mph tech. Now you need all the above mentioned safety gear but add a nomex fire suit, nomex gloves and at a minimum a roll bar with harness's. Now you have to start looking at cooling a few things like the trans and diff. Time to add coolers to both with pumps. About a grand each. And the entry fee is larger also.
After that run you can now run in the 150mph average speed class with a 165pmh tech speed. OK, other than the 110mph class, this is the most comepetive class in the event and usually the most amount of cars. Suprisingly a bone stock ls1/6 will do well in this class with minor mods, cam/heads, exhuast. You just have to keep everything cool. Unless you are running a corvette, you will need a full roll bar to run here. But now you have to keep your foot in it on the run. With a 165mph tech on a 150 target, you have to try and average as close to 165mph as possible to bank as much time as you can prior to the narrows. After the narrows, your cruising speed will be in the high 130's to low 140's trying to hit your target. So if you make it past that event in good standings, THEN you get a shot to run with the big dogs. But even in the 150 class the highest rpm you are going to see running 5th gear with a 3.40 (or close) gear is going to be about 3700-4600rpm IIRC.
The SS and UNL class is no ******* joke. You are putting your life on the line for an adrenaline fix. Ask me how I know, I'll tell you. Try cruising at 209mph and having your motor come apart on you like a hand grenade. You could have slipped a greased BB up my *** at that very second. To run at this level your car has to have a COMPLETE roll cage, on board fire system, fuel cell, highly reccomended HANS device, 3 layers of fire protection for your body, large radiator, trans cooler, diff cooler, oil coolers are not "options" in this class. Your suspension has to be tuned to a gnats ***. One **** up becuase you didnt dial in enough rebound and your next of kin is getting a phone call.
And unless you can push your car beyond 200mph on those 14 mile straights and have a sack big enough to keep your foot in it through the corners above 190mph dont show up if you want to be competative. Otherwise you are doing it just to say "I did it".
To get your BMW to even over 180mph at one of these events is going to take ALOT of HP and prep. You have the drag cd of a brick.
My best advice to you is 1)get the car running and prepped to run in the 110mph class. Dont spend a nickel more that you need to. A BONE STOCK LS1 WILL RUN 110 CLASS WITH NO ISSUES (as long as you know its running good). After doing that, see if its something you want to really get after. The financial commitment to run in the SS or UNL classes is ENOURMOUS. I had almost 80G's tied up in mine when it was finally tuned right and I felt safe enough to run it ragged. and that was just the car and didnt include trailoring it to an event, hotel/food/booze etc. Most UNL class cars have close to 200K tied up in them. If you wanted to do it REAL smart though, just wait till a UNL class racer sell his car and you can pick it up for about 30 grand. thats what a used UNL/SS car goes for. Turn key 200mph car.
Last edited by NataSS Inc; 02-10-2012 at 12:42 PM. Reason: video link didnt work.
02-10-2012, 07:29 PM
#23
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Thanks for the replies, especially NataSS.
I really appreciate the time you took to craft your post. Very good info there!
The SS Challenge is the farthest event from me and after your description of the road surface it's less alluring now.
I'm not expecting to be competitive in ANY class. I'm old enough to not need to prove myself to anyone anymore. I just want to experience some of these events before I'm too old to appreciate them.
I've done a bunch more car building for other folks than for myself and want to enjoy the "adrenaline rush" as you describe.
I have no need to try to be top dog and would not choose this chassis for unlimited level runs. I just want the experience and the t-shirt...
The Ultima GTR is so much better from the get go for ultra high speed work. I might still chose LSx power however. 250K budget is probably too cheap at the top level. Nice to know a serous car could be purchased at fire sale prices; this appears to be a common theme in many forms of wheeled competition..
My budget is more like 20K and my intended goals reflect this...
A high top speed is far less important now than it was when I was young and naive. I am also intending to add an aero package to both front and rear which will further slow the car.
Safety is paramount to me. The addition of a fire suppression system, bolt in roll bar (not a cage as this is a street car first) and proper harnesses are already planned. I did not note them in the original post as it was intended to target basic drive-train upgrades and not total car preparation.
Any tips you're willing to share will be read with great interest however, I don't want to seem un-appreciative here. Your post was an unexpected treat!
New tires are a requirement. I have a brand new set of Conti DWS for everyday street use but will be sourcing a proper set of summer/track/speed event wheels and tires. Tires will have to be PERFECT before I'll use them at high speed.
Nasty rumble strips are to be avoided at ALL costs!
I am going to have accurate temp gauges on all sub systems from the start. Additional cooling will be added if it proves a necessity. I am a FIRM believer in NOT adding complexity just for the sake of complexity.
Thanks again for your time...
I'll try to get some pics posted soon. I'm proud of the M3 as it is a really clean car. It was just barely "scratched/nicked" enough to not take back to a factory concourse level. I really didn't want a trailer queen...
To answer the brake and suspension questions/suggestions:
The stock E36 M3 has been long been considered one of the best overall handling chassis from any manufacture. There are many that are better at a specific task but few that can handle "everything" as well as it can. Most of its reputation comes from the massive feedback it provides the driver. The E46 (next generation) had some of this dialed OUT as many purchasers did not want a car that transmitted EVERYTHING the car is doing to the operator. It's hard to describe but you put a M3 ON, You don't sit in it. The car and driver become one. One of my buddies says that when you run over a dime with it you can tell if it was heads up! It's often described as "raw".
It has no nasty habits and is very "forgiving" when pushed beyond its handling envelope. A beginning driver can drive it fast easily.
Mine has nearly new Bilstein sports with H&R sport springs. The billies are considered too "harsh" by most drivers. These puppies are STIFF. I may end up changing them (or having them re-valved) but they do work well on nice surfaces...
It's real common for M3 crazies to spend $$$ on suspension mods only to end up back on the original equipment as it was so good from the factory.
All bushings/joints/wear items will be new with a few pieces being aftermarket upgrades.
The factory brakes are more than adequate for street and open road use. They can be taxed on a road course but dedicated brake ducting and aftermarket pads usually solves this. My car will be ducted from the start.
Only the master cylinder and ABS unit will be original, everything else "brakes" is being renewed/restored/massaged as required.
Brakes and suspension are not weak points in a E36 M3.
The most common complaint regarding the M3 is the lack of serious power from the factory. The LSx conversion should solve this nicely... I should have more power than any factory M3 street car that BMW has produced. The most recent had 400+ HP 4 liter V8 (with ITBs!)
Thanks again for your suggestions and replies.
Later...
Rick
I really appreciate the time you took to craft your post. Very good info there!
The SS Challenge is the farthest event from me and after your description of the road surface it's less alluring now.
I'm not expecting to be competitive in ANY class. I'm old enough to not need to prove myself to anyone anymore. I just want to experience some of these events before I'm too old to appreciate them.
I've done a bunch more car building for other folks than for myself and want to enjoy the "adrenaline rush" as you describe.
I have no need to try to be top dog and would not choose this chassis for unlimited level runs. I just want the experience and the t-shirt...
The Ultima GTR is so much better from the get go for ultra high speed work. I might still chose LSx power however. 250K budget is probably too cheap at the top level. Nice to know a serous car could be purchased at fire sale prices; this appears to be a common theme in many forms of wheeled competition..
My budget is more like 20K and my intended goals reflect this...
A high top speed is far less important now than it was when I was young and naive. I am also intending to add an aero package to both front and rear which will further slow the car.
Safety is paramount to me. The addition of a fire suppression system, bolt in roll bar (not a cage as this is a street car first) and proper harnesses are already planned. I did not note them in the original post as it was intended to target basic drive-train upgrades and not total car preparation.
Any tips you're willing to share will be read with great interest however, I don't want to seem un-appreciative here. Your post was an unexpected treat!
New tires are a requirement. I have a brand new set of Conti DWS for everyday street use but will be sourcing a proper set of summer/track/speed event wheels and tires. Tires will have to be PERFECT before I'll use them at high speed.
Nasty rumble strips are to be avoided at ALL costs!
I am going to have accurate temp gauges on all sub systems from the start. Additional cooling will be added if it proves a necessity. I am a FIRM believer in NOT adding complexity just for the sake of complexity.
Thanks again for your time...
I'll try to get some pics posted soon. I'm proud of the M3 as it is a really clean car. It was just barely "scratched/nicked" enough to not take back to a factory concourse level. I really didn't want a trailer queen...
To answer the brake and suspension questions/suggestions:
The stock E36 M3 has been long been considered one of the best overall handling chassis from any manufacture. There are many that are better at a specific task but few that can handle "everything" as well as it can. Most of its reputation comes from the massive feedback it provides the driver. The E46 (next generation) had some of this dialed OUT as many purchasers did not want a car that transmitted EVERYTHING the car is doing to the operator. It's hard to describe but you put a M3 ON, You don't sit in it. The car and driver become one. One of my buddies says that when you run over a dime with it you can tell if it was heads up! It's often described as "raw".
It has no nasty habits and is very "forgiving" when pushed beyond its handling envelope. A beginning driver can drive it fast easily.
Mine has nearly new Bilstein sports with H&R sport springs. The billies are considered too "harsh" by most drivers. These puppies are STIFF. I may end up changing them (or having them re-valved) but they do work well on nice surfaces...
It's real common for M3 crazies to spend $$$ on suspension mods only to end up back on the original equipment as it was so good from the factory.
All bushings/joints/wear items will be new with a few pieces being aftermarket upgrades.
The factory brakes are more than adequate for street and open road use. They can be taxed on a road course but dedicated brake ducting and aftermarket pads usually solves this. My car will be ducted from the start.
Only the master cylinder and ABS unit will be original, everything else "brakes" is being renewed/restored/massaged as required.
Brakes and suspension are not weak points in a E36 M3.
The most common complaint regarding the M3 is the lack of serious power from the factory. The LSx conversion should solve this nicely... I should have more power than any factory M3 street car that BMW has produced. The most recent had 400+ HP 4 liter V8 (with ITBs!)
Thanks again for your suggestions and replies.
Later...
Rick
02-10-2012, 08:44 PM
#24
I'll just add one more thing. what goes on a track, DOES NOT go out in an ORR event. Hitting a fronst heave at 185+ with super stiff track suspension will bite you. The Ultima GTR might be the biggest track monster ever made but they dont survive at ORR events out with the big dogs. the short wheel base leads to severe handling issues at real high speeds. A couple dudes showed up a few years ago in a TT SB2.2 powered one. Every time they hit a frost heave over 180 the car tried to take flight.
Take everything you have ever learned about racing and going fast and throw it out the window. Something as little as an alignment can be a life or death issue. Ask dijaro inada from option magazine that showed up in his Z car with a track alignment. Ate his tires up and he wasnt even 10 miles into the run. Now his mega dollar Z car looks like a wad of orange duct tape.
-Cooling is king
-No air going under the car
-have a navigator that has bigger ***** than you so when you side step the car at speed he doesnt scream like a girl
-ALWAYS pre drive your course. This is high altitude desert racing, during the winter the ground freezes and changes the road surface. Know where your big bumps are and use landmarks for your turn in points. Make sure your navigator marks them in his course notes.
I could go on and on and on about this but it takes time and sorting your own car out to get things dialed in. But you can have a ton of fun at these events and meet some amazing people from all over the nation. And make sure when your running the course, you always stay AHEAD of the car. Never get behind it. You get behind it and thats when really bad things start to happen.
Take everything you have ever learned about racing and going fast and throw it out the window. Something as little as an alignment can be a life or death issue. Ask dijaro inada from option magazine that showed up in his Z car with a track alignment. Ate his tires up and he wasnt even 10 miles into the run. Now his mega dollar Z car looks like a wad of orange duct tape.
-Cooling is king
-No air going under the car
-have a navigator that has bigger ***** than you so when you side step the car at speed he doesnt scream like a girl
-ALWAYS pre drive your course. This is high altitude desert racing, during the winter the ground freezes and changes the road surface. Know where your big bumps are and use landmarks for your turn in points. Make sure your navigator marks them in his course notes.
I could go on and on and on about this but it takes time and sorting your own car out to get things dialed in. But you can have a ton of fun at these events and meet some amazing people from all over the nation. And make sure when your running the course, you always stay AHEAD of the car. Never get behind it. You get behind it and thats when really bad things start to happen.
02-12-2012, 10:34 PM
#25
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[QUOTE=technicalninja;15946741]
With the stock 3.23 ratio/25"tire diameter vehicle speed@7000 RPM (red-line) is as follows:
1st 2.66 = 58.5 (8.36/1k)
2nd 1.78 = 86.4 (12.34/1k)
3rd 1.30 = 119.6 (17.08/1k)
4th 1.00 = 155.5 (22.2/1k)
5th .74 = 210.2 (30.02/1k)
6th .50 = 311.0 (44.4/1k)
It looks like the optimal gear for my 150 mph target is 5th at approx 5K. This should be close to my torque peak and BSFC is usually lowest at torque peak.
I am considering fuel economy at high cruise.
If you go with the TR6060, choose one with closer 5th and 6th gears, the ratios you have are very wide which is good for economical cruising, but causes a big rpm drop when shifting.
Also, I don't think you need 6000 rpm to hit the speeds you want. Doing it at lower rpm will greatly improve engine life. 250 hp is more than enough to push that E36 to 150 mph. You might want more to get there fast, but holding 150 will be easy.
With the stock 3.23 ratio/25"tire diameter vehicle speed@7000 RPM (red-line) is as follows:
1st 2.66 = 58.5 (8.36/1k)
2nd 1.78 = 86.4 (12.34/1k)
3rd 1.30 = 119.6 (17.08/1k)
4th 1.00 = 155.5 (22.2/1k)
5th .74 = 210.2 (30.02/1k)
6th .50 = 311.0 (44.4/1k)
It looks like the optimal gear for my 150 mph target is 5th at approx 5K. This should be close to my torque peak and BSFC is usually lowest at torque peak.
I am considering fuel economy at high cruise.
If you go with the TR6060, choose one with closer 5th and 6th gears, the ratios you have are very wide which is good for economical cruising, but causes a big rpm drop when shifting.
Also, I don't think you need 6000 rpm to hit the speeds you want. Doing it at lower rpm will greatly improve engine life. 250 hp is more than enough to push that E36 to 150 mph. You might want more to get there fast, but holding 150 will be easy.
