Higher/Same mpg with Heads/Cam? LS1 M6
04-16-2012, 11:29 AM
#42
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Maybe if it was like the viper bike but with a ls1 with couple bolt ons and tune and you keep the rpms low and the weight down and don't go very fast it could be achieved lol. Only possible way right now is cng and or propane with meth injection. Works on diesel trucks, can work on cars.
04-16-2012, 11:57 AM
#43
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What you're saying here is that you need to be on the moon to achieve this...or in a world with little gravity and little atmosphere to impede your car's momentum as it travels forward.
So basically you agree that it's physically impossible to do this on planet Earth due to the laws of physics that it experiences, such as gravity, resistance, an atmosphere...
So basically you agree that it's physically impossible to do this on planet Earth due to the laws of physics that it experiences, such as gravity, resistance, an atmosphere...
04-16-2012, 12:01 PM
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Maybe if it was like the viper bike but with a ls1 with couple bolt ons and tune and you keep the rpms low and the weight down and don't go very fast it could be achieved lol. Only possible way right now is cng and or propane with meth injection. Works on diesel trucks, can work on cars.
04-16-2012, 12:04 PM
#45
Nope, I'm just expecting that most people on here are a little more intelligent than you and not take everything literal as you have.
So what much more do you want? You asked for opinions, you were told such and that's that. If you're really serious about it, then go do it and report results. Until then these threads are useless as they just turn into everyone say no you can't do this and in response you just question people's intelligence when they don't agree with you.
04-16-2012, 12:11 PM
#46
Wow....LOL
Was that a chance you offered me for you to get a free set of heads for a mission thats basically unachievable IMO.....please.
The reality is I just offered you a chance, (which you refuted like a teenager I might add), not to mention scaled back your numbers in an attempt to help you and make it remotely achievable. All you have to do is back up your claims which most of the sharper guys on this board realize are highly likely impossible (I hate to be completely close minded).
Good luck.....your going to need it.
-Tony
04-16-2012, 12:17 PM
#47
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REALLY??
Wow....LOL
Was that a chance you offered me for you to get a free set of heads for a mission thats basically unachievable IMO.....please.
The reality is I just offered you a chance, (which you refuted like a teenager I might add), not to mention scaled back your numbers in an attempt to help you and make it remotely achievable. All you have to do is back up your claims which most of the sharper guys on this board realize are highly likely impossible (I hate to be completely close minded).
Good luck.....your going to need it.
-Tony
Wow....LOL
Was that a chance you offered me for you to get a free set of heads for a mission thats basically unachievable IMO.....please.
The reality is I just offered you a chance, (which you refuted like a teenager I might add), not to mention scaled back your numbers in an attempt to help you and make it remotely achievable. All you have to do is back up your claims which most of the sharper guys on this board realize are highly likely impossible (I hate to be completely close minded).
Good luck.....your going to need it.
-Tony
I'm gonna give you a call when I build my 402 Tony
04-16-2012, 12:18 PM
#48
^ 
it is unrealistic.......im getting 26mpg on the highway with my LS2 GTO with stock gear and a mild cam and im souped about it....same mpg as stock maybe even a hair better right around 65mph and it makes 420+rwhp
if your looking for 40mpg may i suggest volkswagen or maybe a nice corolla??
it is unrealistic.......im getting 26mpg on the highway with my LS2 GTO with stock gear and a mild cam and im souped about it....same mpg as stock maybe even a hair better right around 65mph and it makes 420+rwhp
if your looking for 40mpg may i suggest volkswagen or maybe a nice corolla??
04-16-2012, 04:43 PM
#50
TECH Apprentice
I started with a similar goal but quickly got brought down to reality. It is not over yet so I may yet achieve it, but what it will take is something I have not figured out yet.
My goals were 450rwhp. Check - got that with a custom STS turbo setup with upgraded BB turbo at 6lb boost.
My mpg goal was also 40mpg imperial with plasma ignition enabling extremely lean burn. On the way to get there though I expected to improve on the 32.6mpg imperial the car got on the stock cam on a good tune by adding a turbo/performance cam.
My car weighs a lot more than a Vette or Camaro and it runs the 4160e auto - so I'm at a big disadvantage. The stock LS1 cam with the M6 in my 4 door sedan would have been capable of an honest 36mpg imperial! However it was not making 450rwhp, it was making an honest 283rwhp with mild bolt ons and a MAFless tune (or 319rwhp if you put it on a bragging rights dyno which most people do). They key is the tune.
I could see a stock cammed Vette M6 being tuned to achieve 40mpg imperial. Allegedly, STS has a turbo C6 LS3 powered car that achieves 35mpg US or just over 40mpg imperial on a trip! The car is on you tube with instant mpg readings well over 40mpg US sustained at 70mph+. Might have been down hill lol but it proves the C6 and m6 can get amazing mpg.
What I can tell you is this - when I went to a bigger cam mpg got worse - period. It is only a 222/226 cam on 114/116LC's and 0.575" lift but I don't care what tune you put on it that cam you will not better about 26mpg in my car with the auto (about 30mpg imperial). So I've actually lost about 2mpg at cruise with the cam, MORE around town.
How do I know a new tune will not make it better with a cam? Because we spent a lot of time going way leaner (until car stumbled at steady cruise) and then played with timing until the lean burn was on the edge and mpg just was not going to get any better regardless of more or less timing. Another cam may do better but that cam is at its limit right now without some other mods to allow a leaner burn - such as plasma ignition and perhaps steady throttle water/meth injection.
But if you run water/meth at cruise you will need a big tank PLUS you are actually burning another fuel (Meth) so are you really able to claim the mpg gained?
Hot fuel helps mpg but will hurt power unless you ditch the O2 sensors and retune for it. You want cold air for power, but hot fuel could make power with cold air.
Anyway - good luck. I've gone backwards in mpg with the cam but will keep it because even with the turbo the engine is way crisper than a stock cammed LS1 and just gets onto it anytime. The cam picked up over 50rwhp before boost was added.
If I add plasma I may get back to 28mpg US/33mpg imperial but will be changing plugs every oil change. 40mpg? I don't see it in my car, you might see it in yours, but not with a big cam.
Go stock cam and turbo!!! That way you'll get the power without losing mpg. No way a bigger cam will use less fuel is my hard experience.
My goals were 450rwhp. Check - got that with a custom STS turbo setup with upgraded BB turbo at 6lb boost.
My mpg goal was also 40mpg imperial with plasma ignition enabling extremely lean burn. On the way to get there though I expected to improve on the 32.6mpg imperial the car got on the stock cam on a good tune by adding a turbo/performance cam.
My car weighs a lot more than a Vette or Camaro and it runs the 4160e auto - so I'm at a big disadvantage. The stock LS1 cam with the M6 in my 4 door sedan would have been capable of an honest 36mpg imperial! However it was not making 450rwhp, it was making an honest 283rwhp with mild bolt ons and a MAFless tune (or 319rwhp if you put it on a bragging rights dyno which most people do). They key is the tune.
I could see a stock cammed Vette M6 being tuned to achieve 40mpg imperial. Allegedly, STS has a turbo C6 LS3 powered car that achieves 35mpg US or just over 40mpg imperial on a trip! The car is on you tube with instant mpg readings well over 40mpg US sustained at 70mph+. Might have been down hill lol but it proves the C6 and m6 can get amazing mpg.
What I can tell you is this - when I went to a bigger cam mpg got worse - period. It is only a 222/226 cam on 114/116LC's and 0.575" lift but I don't care what tune you put on it that cam you will not better about 26mpg in my car with the auto (about 30mpg imperial). So I've actually lost about 2mpg at cruise with the cam, MORE around town.
How do I know a new tune will not make it better with a cam? Because we spent a lot of time going way leaner (until car stumbled at steady cruise) and then played with timing until the lean burn was on the edge and mpg just was not going to get any better regardless of more or less timing. Another cam may do better but that cam is at its limit right now without some other mods to allow a leaner burn - such as plasma ignition and perhaps steady throttle water/meth injection.
But if you run water/meth at cruise you will need a big tank PLUS you are actually burning another fuel (Meth) so are you really able to claim the mpg gained?
Hot fuel helps mpg but will hurt power unless you ditch the O2 sensors and retune for it. You want cold air for power, but hot fuel could make power with cold air.
Anyway - good luck. I've gone backwards in mpg with the cam but will keep it because even with the turbo the engine is way crisper than a stock cammed LS1 and just gets onto it anytime. The cam picked up over 50rwhp before boost was added.
If I add plasma I may get back to 28mpg US/33mpg imperial but will be changing plugs every oil change. 40mpg? I don't see it in my car, you might see it in yours, but not with a big cam.
Go stock cam and turbo!!! That way you'll get the power without losing mpg. No way a bigger cam will use less fuel is my hard experience.
Last edited by Bazman; 04-16-2012 at 04:49 PM.
04-16-2012, 04:54 PM
#51
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There was an engine guy called The Old One. He made 450hp and got over 40mpg back in the pre lock up converter days. He used very high compression (15-17:1) and other lean burn tricks that likely died with him.... the only living man I know of who may be able to duplicate that is Larry who posted up this site : http://www.theoldone.com/
Whether he is willing to talk about it I have no idea. But Smokey Yunick did something similar too. I don't see it as commercially viable technology but what would I know
Whether he is willing to talk about it I have no idea. But Smokey Yunick did something similar too. I don't see it as commercially viable technology but what would I know
04-16-2012, 05:45 PM
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Budget isn't important. I'm just going to do the best I can with what I have. Again, 40 is my extreme goal. Getting close to that is what I plan on. I know I'll need variable timing and insane tuning. I've talked to two mechanical engineers and a couple of electrical engineers and they did all the math and said 38 seemed doable but 40 was pushing it. I need almost no friction from tire to road, extremely light body, no wind running under the car, and a 7th gear. Everything else is tuning, porting, air flow, and lean spray.
final decision. its not happening. i dont understand how you cant realize the obvious that has been stated multiple times. if you want 40 mpg go buy a hybrid.
04-16-2012, 05:49 PM
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I started with a similar goal but quickly got brought down to reality. It is not over yet so I may yet achieve it, but what it will take is something I have not figured out yet.
My goals were 450rwhp. Check - got that with a custom STS turbo setup with upgraded BB turbo at 6lb boost.
My mpg goal was also 40mpg imperial with plasma ignition enabling extremely lean burn. On the way to get there though I expected to improve on the 32.6mpg imperial the car got on the stock cam on a good tune by adding a turbo/performance cam.
My car weighs a lot more than a Vette or Camaro and it runs the 4160e auto - so I'm at a big disadvantage. The stock LS1 cam with the M6 in my 4 door sedan would have been capable of an honest 36mpg imperial! However it was not making 450rwhp, it was making an honest 283rwhp with mild bolt ons and a MAFless tune (or 319rwhp if you put it on a bragging rights dyno which most people do). They key is the tune.
I could see a stock cammed Vette M6 being tuned to achieve 40mpg imperial. Allegedly, STS has a turbo C6 LS3 powered car that achieves 35mpg US or just over 40mpg imperial on a trip! The car is on you tube with instant mpg readings well over 40mpg US sustained at 70mph+. Might have been down hill lol but it proves the C6 and m6 can get amazing mpg.
What I can tell you is this - when I went to a bigger cam mpg got worse - period. It is only a 222/226 cam on 114/116LC's and 0.575" lift but I don't care what tune you put on it that cam you will not better about 26mpg in my car with the auto (about 30mpg imperial). So I've actually lost about 2mpg at cruise with the cam, MORE around town.
How do I know a new tune will not make it better with a cam? Because we spent a lot of time going way leaner (until car stumbled at steady cruise) and then played with timing until the lean burn was on the edge and mpg just was not going to get any better regardless of more or less timing. Another cam may do better but that cam is at its limit right now without some other mods to allow a leaner burn - such as plasma ignition and perhaps steady throttle water/meth injection.
But if you run water/meth at cruise you will need a big tank PLUS you are actually burning another fuel (Meth) so are you really able to claim the mpg gained?
Hot fuel helps mpg but will hurt power unless you ditch the O2 sensors and retune for it. You want cold air for power, but hot fuel could make power with cold air.
Anyway - good luck. I've gone backwards in mpg with the cam but will keep it because even with the turbo the engine is way crisper than a stock cammed LS1 and just gets onto it anytime. The cam picked up over 50rwhp before boost was added.
If I add plasma I may get back to 28mpg US/33mpg imperial but will be changing plugs every oil change. 40mpg? I don't see it in my car, you might see it in yours, but not with a big cam.
Go stock cam and turbo!!! That way you'll get the power without losing mpg. No way a bigger cam will use less fuel is my hard experience.
My goals were 450rwhp. Check - got that with a custom STS turbo setup with upgraded BB turbo at 6lb boost.
My mpg goal was also 40mpg imperial with plasma ignition enabling extremely lean burn. On the way to get there though I expected to improve on the 32.6mpg imperial the car got on the stock cam on a good tune by adding a turbo/performance cam.
My car weighs a lot more than a Vette or Camaro and it runs the 4160e auto - so I'm at a big disadvantage. The stock LS1 cam with the M6 in my 4 door sedan would have been capable of an honest 36mpg imperial! However it was not making 450rwhp, it was making an honest 283rwhp with mild bolt ons and a MAFless tune (or 319rwhp if you put it on a bragging rights dyno which most people do). They key is the tune.
I could see a stock cammed Vette M6 being tuned to achieve 40mpg imperial. Allegedly, STS has a turbo C6 LS3 powered car that achieves 35mpg US or just over 40mpg imperial on a trip! The car is on you tube with instant mpg readings well over 40mpg US sustained at 70mph+. Might have been down hill lol but it proves the C6 and m6 can get amazing mpg.
What I can tell you is this - when I went to a bigger cam mpg got worse - period. It is only a 222/226 cam on 114/116LC's and 0.575" lift but I don't care what tune you put on it that cam you will not better about 26mpg in my car with the auto (about 30mpg imperial). So I've actually lost about 2mpg at cruise with the cam, MORE around town.
How do I know a new tune will not make it better with a cam? Because we spent a lot of time going way leaner (until car stumbled at steady cruise) and then played with timing until the lean burn was on the edge and mpg just was not going to get any better regardless of more or less timing. Another cam may do better but that cam is at its limit right now without some other mods to allow a leaner burn - such as plasma ignition and perhaps steady throttle water/meth injection.
But if you run water/meth at cruise you will need a big tank PLUS you are actually burning another fuel (Meth) so are you really able to claim the mpg gained?
Hot fuel helps mpg but will hurt power unless you ditch the O2 sensors and retune for it. You want cold air for power, but hot fuel could make power with cold air.
Anyway - good luck. I've gone backwards in mpg with the cam but will keep it because even with the turbo the engine is way crisper than a stock cammed LS1 and just gets onto it anytime. The cam picked up over 50rwhp before boost was added.
If I add plasma I may get back to 28mpg US/33mpg imperial but will be changing plugs every oil change. 40mpg? I don't see it in my car, you might see it in yours, but not with a big cam.
Go stock cam and turbo!!! That way you'll get the power without losing mpg. No way a bigger cam will use less fuel is my hard experience.
04-16-2012, 05:52 PM
#55
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Worked on a custom fuel injection system today with custom pistons. Naturally aspirated making 38 mpg on computer model with wind resistance and friction from the tires factored. Haters/nonbelievers can start crying. Once I add custom turbo set up, I'll be getting a job somewhere big
04-16-2012, 06:21 PM
#56
Worked on a custom fuel injection system today with custom pistons. Naturally aspirated making 38 mpg on computer model with wind resistance and friction from the tires factored. Haters/nonbelievers can start crying. Once I add custom turbo set up, I'll be getting a job somewhere big
Also, I'll start crying when I see it. Right now all you got is a friggin' computer model and nothing else, so until you get something tangible then I'm not gonna lose any sleep don't you worry.
04-16-2012, 06:22 PM
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pics or it didnt happen.... 
i would love to see this and i would love to see the dyno charts where it says this thing will be pushing over 400 hp....
btw your attitude is really helping you gain support... *sarcasm*
i would love to see this and i would love to see the dyno charts where it says this thing will be pushing over 400 hp....
btw your attitude is really helping you gain support... *sarcasm*
04-16-2012, 07:38 PM
#60
Look meng, you've already created several threads about this over the past year or so...and in each and one of those everyone has told you that what you're looking for is basically impossible. From amateurs to professionals in the LSx business alike.
So what much more do you want? You asked for opinions, you were told such and that's that. If you're really serious about it, then go do it and report results. Until then these threads are useless as they just turn into everyone say no you can't do this and in response you just question people's intelligence when they don't agree with you.
So what much more do you want? You asked for opinions, you were told such and that's that. If you're really serious about it, then go do it and report results. Until then these threads are useless as they just turn into everyone say no you can't do this and in response you just question people's intelligence when they don't agree with you.
Didnt realize there were other threads but seeing as you mentioned it i couldnt help but look. This thread is fail like ALL the others. You guys in for the entertainment factor should check out the older stuff. He calls the newer Vettes "flimsy" in one post when someone suggested that would be a more aerodynamic car to start with.
https://ls1tech.com/forums/pontiac-f...heads-cam.html
https://ls1tech.com/forums/generatio...m-ls1-ls6.html
https://ls1tech.com/forums/new-ls1-o...-trans-am.html
So a year plus later since the first thread and absolutely nothing tangible has been produced but he's still good at getting snippy with those that dare disagree with him
No more mileage threads for this guy!!
