Gain of 50HP by changing rods. . . .
04-01-2004, 01:35 PM
#21
PSJ,
I am well aware of what NHRA Pro Stockers run and also IHRA. So with that info and knowing the posted RPM. . .put 2 and 2 together. As far as gain, it doesn't matter if it is a No. 1 qualifier or a No. 16., the engine gained that power with a connecting rod change. A gain is a gain.
Wicked,
Thats all that was changed, the rods. GM weight savings was 100gms x 8. Simple question: In a 60ft race would you bet on the 300lb guy or the 180lb guy to win? Rods are designed to go as long as a steel rod. . .that is why the Dept. of Energy in Oakridge, TN is doing the cycle testing of the rods. That is your Gov. dollars at work because if the process will allow aluminum extended life then the weight savings and fuel savings would be tremendous for the auto market. The 10 pass comment, the patent holder on the rods has a twin screw Nito/methanol dragster with a SBC. It has 600+ passes in the 5.30 range 1/8th and the rods weight 450gms.
Anyone coming to the Thunder Valley Nationals in April, e-mail or call and I'll be more then happy to take you to his shop.
Chris
I am well aware of what NHRA Pro Stockers run and also IHRA. So with that info and knowing the posted RPM. . .put 2 and 2 together. As far as gain, it doesn't matter if it is a No. 1 qualifier or a No. 16., the engine gained that power with a connecting rod change. A gain is a gain.
Wicked,
Thats all that was changed, the rods. GM weight savings was 100gms x 8. Simple question: In a 60ft race would you bet on the 300lb guy or the 180lb guy to win? Rods are designed to go as long as a steel rod. . .that is why the Dept. of Energy in Oakridge, TN is doing the cycle testing of the rods. That is your Gov. dollars at work because if the process will allow aluminum extended life then the weight savings and fuel savings would be tremendous for the auto market. The 10 pass comment, the patent holder on the rods has a twin screw Nito/methanol dragster with a SBC. It has 600+ passes in the 5.30 range 1/8th and the rods weight 450gms.
Anyone coming to the Thunder Valley Nationals in April, e-mail or call and I'll be more then happy to take you to his shop.
Chris
04-01-2004, 02:49 PM
#22
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theres not an aluminum rod that will last 600+ passes in a nitro motor, even in the 1/8th, period....and i sitll dont believe the gains, you can take a regular BBC that turns 8000 RPM's w/the heaviest steel rod, then put a super lightweight aluminum rod and it wont gain 50hp, no way...the only way i see a motor gaining that much HP is if the original rod was too short and the compression was only 12:1 then raised to 15-16:1...sorry,but just cant believe it.....
and aluminum cant and wont ever go as long as a steel rod, thats why Groden/GRP/Bill Miller, all big name rod manufacturers, recommend you change their rods ever so many passes...and their lightweight ones are normally around 50 passes, which im sure Pro Stock runs even lighter rods than those...
BTW what kind of car is that twin screw nitro motor in? my dads race car has a NA 509 CI with conventional heads and a single 4 barrel that ran a 5.23 in the 1/8th? he turns it 8400 RPM's and we change rods ever 150-200 passes, he runs Grodens...
and aluminum cant and wont ever go as long as a steel rod, thats why Groden/GRP/Bill Miller, all big name rod manufacturers, recommend you change their rods ever so many passes...and their lightweight ones are normally around 50 passes, which im sure Pro Stock runs even lighter rods than those...
BTW what kind of car is that twin screw nitro motor in? my dads race car has a NA 509 CI with conventional heads and a single 4 barrel that ran a 5.23 in the 1/8th? he turns it 8400 RPM's and we change rods ever 150-200 passes, he runs Grodens...
04-01-2004, 03:11 PM
#23
Well there is now. Invitation stands, Bristol Nationals, I'll take you to his shop. Then if you want we can go talk to the R&D scientist at Oakridge, the US Goverments research lab.
They are big name. . respected mfgs. I also can remember when Brooks/Manley and Howard rods were the best. New stuff comes out everyday.
Car is a front engine dragster, nostalgia. SBC is coming out in a year and he is putting an LS1 in it with a fabbed mainifoild for the blowers.
Your dad has a fast car.
Chris
They are big name. . respected mfgs. I also can remember when Brooks/Manley and Howard rods were the best. New stuff comes out everyday.
Car is a front engine dragster, nostalgia. SBC is coming out in a year and he is putting an LS1 in it with a fabbed mainifoild for the blowers.
Your dad has a fast car.
Chris
04-01-2004, 04:15 PM
#26
Alloy is Kaiser 7075 as the base material. Rod is then transformed. This process is patented. Rod does not use dowel pins to locate the cap, it is a radial serration. Rod cap has splayed rod bolts, that is patented also. Because of the cap design, stress is transferred up the beam of the rod to share the stress load. . .basicly balances the load over a larger area instead of out word like a std rod bolt set-up.
PSJ, I'm not sure what you are referring to.. . How big is which engine, the PS or the Dragster? The dragster is a 406 CID. What the record is . . .I don't see the relativity to this, but of course I am just a dumb old country boy. Which car runs down here? What I meant if anyone is going to come to Bristol, I am 8 miles from the track, I would gladly take them over to Kirks shop for an introduction. I may even have a few extra tickets since we are an NHRA sponsor and contingency poster. I did not mean to imply this dragster to race a Pro Stocker.
I'll go ahead and throw one more out there for the fun of it. . .the dragster has a stock cast GM crank. It has as many passes on it as the rods. Combo has been toghther going on 5 years. Did have to change cam, during a routine bearing and rod sizing check, it was noticed that No. 2 rod was hitting the cam. Flat spotted the cam, rod was marked. . .nothing more.
Chris
PSJ, I'm not sure what you are referring to.. . How big is which engine, the PS or the Dragster? The dragster is a 406 CID. What the record is . . .I don't see the relativity to this, but of course I am just a dumb old country boy. Which car runs down here? What I meant if anyone is going to come to Bristol, I am 8 miles from the track, I would gladly take them over to Kirks shop for an introduction. I may even have a few extra tickets since we are an NHRA sponsor and contingency poster. I did not mean to imply this dragster to race a Pro Stocker.
I'll go ahead and throw one more out there for the fun of it. . .the dragster has a stock cast GM crank. It has as many passes on it as the rods. Combo has been toghther going on 5 years. Did have to change cam, during a routine bearing and rod sizing check, it was noticed that No. 2 rod was hitting the cam. Flat spotted the cam, rod was marked. . .nothing more.
Chris
04-01-2004, 06:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Cstraub
I'll go ahead and throw one more out there for the fun of it. . .the dragster has a stock cast GM crank. It has as many passes on it as the rods. Combo has been toghther going on 5 years. Did have to change cam, during a routine bearing and rod sizing check, it was noticed that No. 2 rod was hitting the cam. Flat spotted the cam, rod was marked. . .nothing more.
Chris
Chris
Boy, this thread is almost "Corral-ish"...
...anyway....
A set of Ford 5.400 Jager rods survived a complete melt down in a Renegade engine.
Heads were toasted, melted and so soft now they're paperweights...
Stealth titanium exhaust valves now look like Barbie wine glasses...
Pistons look like a candle that was left on too long...
Jager Rods... Well, inspite of the excessive heat... They'll be used in the new longblock...
BME, GRP, C&A, Groden and many others would not have survived...
Ed
04-01-2004, 10:17 PM
#29
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Cstraub, I live in Abingdon. Also own a laser shop if there's a need for custom parts. I'd like to meet up and take up the offer for a visit to both shops. One day next week?????
04-01-2004, 10:24 PM
#30
Sounds great! Since they are patented can you posted a picture of this revolutionary rod?
Ok I'll ask what everyone else is wanting to ask, can these Uber Jagers last on the street in a daily driver? Also what do the cost?
I've got 600 beans for rods, that ought to cover a set right?
Ok I'll ask what everyone else is wanting to ask, can these Uber Jagers last on the street in a daily driver? Also what do the cost?
I've got 600 beans for rods, that ought to cover a set right?
04-02-2004, 05:26 AM
#31
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Originally Posted by 99 Black Bird T/A
Sounds great! Since they are patented can you posted a picture of this revolutionary rod?
Ok I'll ask what everyone else is wanting to ask, can these Uber Jagers last on the street in a daily driver? Also what do the cost?
I've got 600 beans for rods, that ought to cover a set right?
Ok I'll ask what everyone else is wanting to ask, can these Uber Jagers last on the street in a daily driver? Also what do the cost?
I've got 600 beans for rods, that ought to cover a set right?
there is a picture of the rods on the FTI site... Jarrod (J-rod) linked to it in a thread a while back.BTW... $600 will get you about two and a half rods... Welcome to the big leagues.
Ed
04-02-2004, 07:26 AM
#32
FormerVendor
Lighter parts WILL pick up measured power at high step rates like OldsStrokerSS said even though they may not pick up power at steady state rpms. The stuff we all do invloves accelerating engines as well as the car and weight is always worth reducing. I could see gains like that at extremely high step rate like you would see in lower gears when the engine rotating weight itself is holding back acceleration. On a big converter car that hangs at the same rpm the gains wouldn't be as much at the track but it's still a gain usually and especially if these rods can last longer which is the bigger downside to aluminum rods anyway. I've seen the pics before and they do look pretty interesting.
04-02-2004, 08:05 AM
#33
Onfire,
Next week would probly work. 423 854 0007 is my number. Jagers shop is in Jonesborough, I'm in Boones Creek. I actually have some stuff we are needing to get laser etched.
99,
I thought I posted it but maybe not. . the Dept of Energy in Oakridge is cycle testing the rods for OEM applications with positive results. . .I don't know exactly how many miles they have simulated but they have surpassed the estimated cycle life. When Kirk set out on this project his goal was to have an aluminum rod that would live in race applications as long as a steel rod. Now the rod shows promise for extented life in you run of the mill 240HP OEM cars. The benefit of the rod with reduction on crankshaft weight and other related items would make engines more effiecient.
Cost is expensive. If he runs 1 size in the 1000HP series, say 20 sets, cost can be around $1000 a set. If you just get 1 set, it is $1800. His 2500HP series is what the pros are using and they are $2000 a set. The 5000HP series is around $2600 but are targeted for fuel teams, most cycle their rods after 10 passes.
Chris
Next week would probly work. 423 854 0007 is my number. Jagers shop is in Jonesborough, I'm in Boones Creek. I actually have some stuff we are needing to get laser etched.
99,
I thought I posted it but maybe not. . the Dept of Energy in Oakridge is cycle testing the rods for OEM applications with positive results. . .I don't know exactly how many miles they have simulated but they have surpassed the estimated cycle life. When Kirk set out on this project his goal was to have an aluminum rod that would live in race applications as long as a steel rod. Now the rod shows promise for extented life in you run of the mill 240HP OEM cars. The benefit of the rod with reduction on crankshaft weight and other related items would make engines more effiecient.
Cost is expensive. If he runs 1 size in the 1000HP series, say 20 sets, cost can be around $1000 a set. If you just get 1 set, it is $1800. His 2500HP series is what the pros are using and they are $2000 a set. The 5000HP series is around $2600 but are targeted for fuel teams, most cycle their rods after 10 passes.
Chris
04-02-2004, 08:24 PM
#35
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FWIW, 100,000 miles on a OEM engine is about 200+ million revs if most of the driving is in OD. It culd be double that for urban driving. That's a stretch for any aluminum, transformed or not.
The vast majority of OEM engine revs them are not "in anger" as in WOT acceleration to max rpm. At steady state (cruising) rpm rotating inertia isn't much of a hinderance. Even if you save the 1-3/4 pounds (800 gm) in the rods, it wouldn't be much of an advantage in the 240 hp engine.
As far a cost, steel powdered metal rods are pretty cheap to make.
A PS engine turns over maybe 1000 revs in anger per pass.
The vast majority of OEM engine revs them are not "in anger" as in WOT acceleration to max rpm. At steady state (cruising) rpm rotating inertia isn't much of a hinderance. Even if you save the 1-3/4 pounds (800 gm) in the rods, it wouldn't be much of an advantage in the 240 hp engine.
As far a cost, steel powdered metal rods are pretty cheap to make.
A PS engine turns over maybe 1000 revs in anger per pass.
Chris might be pulling an April Fool's
04-03-2004, 12:10 PM
#38
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I don't know if I read that strokers benefit more or high revvers. Either way there's some gain to be had with lighter rotating assembly. It's interesting how far parts have come over the last few years. Maybe soon we'll be able to run an all titanium valvetrain and bottom end a reasonable price. That move alone should be good for 8k-9k RPM in a built ls1 no. Mainly for just the street.
04-03-2004, 12:22 PM
#39