Block Honing Question
Teching In
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 4
Likes: 0
From: Conroe , TX
Well from my experience I dont know of a single ring manufacture that states its ring will seal if it does not have the proper hone on the wall . Even with today new thinner better metal molly coated rings it still requires a hone to seat against. They work hand in hand if you think about it a ring seats into the wall so that ring matches that cylinder , it has its own wear pattern, So if you just throw a new ring set in how can it truly seat against the wall . The new age of rings is much better and they require a tighter hone pattern and not cut as deep . The new style of rings will seat almost instantly with the proper hone. If you just throw the rings in there it might act like it is sealing but it will be short lived the ring will glaze the edge and stop seal sooner because it is being used in a cylinder that has an old ring pattern in it .
Well from my experience I dont know of a single ring manufacture that states its ring will seal if it does not have the proper hone on the wall . Even with today new thinner better metal molly coated rings it still requires a hone to seat against. They work hand in hand if you think about it a ring seats into the wall so that ring matches that cylinder , it has its own wear pattern, So if you just throw a new ring set in how can it truly seat against the wall . The new age of rings is much better and they require a tighter hone pattern and not cut as deep . The new style of rings will seat almost instantly with the proper hone. If you just throw the rings in there it might act like it is sealing but it will be short lived the ring will glaze the edge and stop seal sooner because it is being used in a cylinder that has an old ring pattern in it .
That quick seal has to be alied with clean cylinders. It turns a green shade if the walls are clean, but is like black if contaminants are present. Check the total seal website...
I have yet another question about the piston/bore topic I was going to make another thread but didnt want to clutter the board up haha.
Okay, so I was looking through pistons(cant 100% decide to reuse the stock pistons or go forged, everyone here says my stock pistons will hold 430rwhp but buddies say no..but thats another thread..)anyways was looking at Mahle pistons, and in the specs it says (bore size 3.898).
My question is.. does that just require a hone? I mean would I even need to take it to a machine shop for them to match the piston/bore? I was trying to stay away from the local machine shop as much as possible because they are a rip off. What all goes into this if I decided to go that route(not sure yet what I want, tax $$ will decide for me lol) I know with the 347 pistons the bore size is 3.903-3.905" and I would have to take it to a machine shop, so I was looking at the 346 pistons & it says 3.898 and wondered if they were just direct replacement or if I could hone & go or if a machine shop needed to match them.
Let me know. Thanks again.
Okay, so I was looking through pistons(cant 100% decide to reuse the stock pistons or go forged, everyone here says my stock pistons will hold 430rwhp but buddies say no..but thats another thread..)anyways was looking at Mahle pistons, and in the specs it says (bore size 3.898).
My question is.. does that just require a hone? I mean would I even need to take it to a machine shop for them to match the piston/bore? I was trying to stay away from the local machine shop as much as possible because they are a rip off. What all goes into this if I decided to go that route(not sure yet what I want, tax $$ will decide for me lol) I know with the 347 pistons the bore size is 3.903-3.905" and I would have to take it to a machine shop, so I was looking at the 346 pistons & it says 3.898 and wondered if they were just direct replacement or if I could hone & go or if a machine shop needed to match them.
Let me know. Thanks again.
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this^. just knock the glaze off with a hone. new pistons would require a complete balance. as we all said in another thread no offense to your buddies but if they think 430whp is pushing the limits of the stock ls bottom end then I wouldnt listen to them at all for anything regarding ls engines. people routinely push 460-500whp on stock bottom ends with no issues. i would upgrade the rod bolts though.
redbird, I know what you mean, Im just scared to put it back together with the stock stuff and it blow, but I think im going to try it. If it does oh well lol. stock parts only had 63k on them so not overly worn I wouldnt think.
When we say the LS1 engine has a 3.898 bore, that's what the engineering people say it is in a perfect world. Unfortunately, nothing is perfect and there is a range of acceptable tolerances. Your block bore can be anything from 3.897" - 3.898" and be considered "within tolerance". Factory slugs per factory specs can be anywhere from 3.8962" - 3.8969" and be considered "within tolerance". The acceptable piston to cylinder clearance is 0.0007" - 0.00212". So let's say after you honed a motor you are right at 3.898" on the bore and your pistons are alittle on the small side from wear if they were on the short end of the scale when manufactured. You could have issues with piston slap and oil burning and generally not be happy with the outcome.
I'm all for saving money, but there are places that you should just pony up and have things checked just to make sure. It's a potentially expensive mistake that could be avoided by having parts checked for out of round/out of tolerance before you actually blow it up. To me that's worth the couple hundred bucks.
I understand what you mean when you are saying you are worried and don't want it to blow etc. Stock slugs generally are AOK as long as you are keeping the motor NA and not running super high RPMs or a crazy lift that would require alot of flycutting etc. Now, I will say this and you probiably won't like it. It's all fine and dandy to hone a motor and slap rings onto your slugs and go with it, but please do keep this in mind. You really should be checking things. Here is an example.
When we say the LS1 engine has a 3.898 bore, that's what the engineering people say it is in a perfect world. Unfortunately, nothing is perfect and there is a range of acceptable tolerances. Your block bore can be anything from 3.897" - 3.898" and be considered "within tolerance". Factory slugs per factory specs can be anywhere from 3.8962" - 3.8969" and be considered "within tolerance". The acceptable piston to cylinder clearance is 0.0007" - 0.00212". So let's say after you honed a motor you are right at 3.898" on the bore and your pistons are alittle on the small side from wear if they were on the short end of the scale when manufactured. You could have issues with piston slap and oil burning and generally not be happy with the outcome.
I'm all for saving money, but there are places that you should just pony up and have things checked just to make sure. It's a potentially expensive mistake that could be avoided by having parts checked for out of round/out of tolerance before you actually blow it up. To me that's worth the couple hundred bucks.
When we say the LS1 engine has a 3.898 bore, that's what the engineering people say it is in a perfect world. Unfortunately, nothing is perfect and there is a range of acceptable tolerances. Your block bore can be anything from 3.897" - 3.898" and be considered "within tolerance". Factory slugs per factory specs can be anywhere from 3.8962" - 3.8969" and be considered "within tolerance". The acceptable piston to cylinder clearance is 0.0007" - 0.00212". So let's say after you honed a motor you are right at 3.898" on the bore and your pistons are alittle on the small side from wear if they were on the short end of the scale when manufactured. You could have issues with piston slap and oil burning and generally not be happy with the outcome.
I'm all for saving money, but there are places that you should just pony up and have things checked just to make sure. It's a potentially expensive mistake that could be avoided by having parts checked for out of round/out of tolerance before you actually blow it up. To me that's worth the couple hundred bucks.
The piston to wall clearances were not right and it burnt oil. In the end, If I had it to do over, I would have just honed it to 3.903 and set everything instead of trying to re ring it.
After that ordeal was all said and done, the sleeves were trashed and at that point, the block was not worth saving money wise. So I ended up with an iron 6.0
so youre saying hone it to 3.903 or 3.905 for forged 347 pistons instead of just re ring? should i have a shop do it? if i can do it with the flex hone i will. just wondering how to get it exactly 3.90x? how to measure?
Get your 3.903 pistons, take them, the block, crank, rods, rings and bearings to the shop and have them fit the pistons to the bore, rings to the pistons and set the bearing clearances. This is the best, most efficient way to a good reliable engine.
but that is really what I'm asking. Would I be better off just saving more & buying forged pistons & be done with it? I know all these guys have said itd be fine with stock BUT I dont want to be that 1% that blows up and ruins everything ya know. If its possible Ill have oil consumption problems,etc with the re ring route and possibly a weaker engine as far as reliability then I would rather save up and go forged. I cant afford to have stock grenade on me & ruin heads,cam, whatever..now on to the other question.. in another thread of mine, I asked if I could go with forged pistons & stock rods(with upgraded Katech bolts). He said either go forged pistons AND rods, or stay stock bottom end, dont do just one. What do you think? be okay with forged pistons & stock rods or should I go forged on both? which would also be more $$ lol I already have bearing I bought for the stock rods. So if I got different rods Id need different bearings. Do they come with new bearings or how would I know which bearings to get? the crank doesnt need to be turned, already had it checked, so Im guessing standard bearings.
Coonass350 I certainly understand wanting to do it once but let's be frank here. Fluke failures occur even on new pistons, rods, cranks, and so on. If you want to reuse your factory pistons then by all means have the parts inspected and make an intelligent and more importantly informed decision from there.
So Im starting to think forged is the way to go. that way I dont have to worry about it(as much lol) I know forged can break too, but Im sure it'd hold up better than the stock ones.
Can I go with forged pistons & stock rods w/ Katech rod bolts? or go forged rods & pistons?
Coonass350, the idea of going the next size up seems safer, but remember part failures do occur on occasion. You need to know what you are working with. Factory parts are pretty reliable in moderate HP applications even so don't rule them out if you are looking to save a buck here and there, but you regardless must know what your clearances are.
If you don't like your local shop you have two options. Purchase the calipers and bore gauges yourself and measure. Now be warned that these tools are expensive and do take some time to learn to use properly. Or you could find another shop. Thunder Racing is there in Louisiana albet I have no idea how local/remote they are from you, but I know for sure they know a thing or two about LS motors.
If you don't like your local shop you have two options. Purchase the calipers and bore gauges yourself and measure. Now be warned that these tools are expensive and do take some time to learn to use properly. Or you could find another shop. Thunder Racing is there in Louisiana albet I have no idea how local/remote they are from you, but I know for sure they know a thing or two about LS motors.