BurnOut

iTrader: (1)

Spinmonster- not trying to start any vendor bashing here, but I'll believe a 450-470 RWHP (ported) factory headed, LS6 manifold equipped 224/228 (hydraulic roller) cammed stock shortblock when I see the cam come out of the car and go on a Cam Doctor (and after seeing the car make the number on nothing better than 93 octane pump gas).

I'm not saying that it hasn't been done or that it can't be done, but considering that the other packages that make those kind of numbers (again, with ported factory castings) have cams that are considerably larger, I find it somewhat astonishing.

I think that we can all agree that the Comp 224/228 cam usually doesn't result in 450+ RWHP; so if, in fact, the package that you're referring to actually has the same cam specs (as far as @ .050 duration, anyhow), then the cam to which you're referring obviously has significant changes in the timing of the valve events (when compared to the Comp piece). So, then, I have to wonder what would happen if some AFR 205's were coupled with the high-output 224/228 cam...

Note to moderators: I am not bash anyone, or any shop/vendor; nor am I trying to hijack a thread. I am simply questioning whether or not the dyno results for the AFR heads are in fact comparable to the results for another currently available engine package.

SNAXS

Sarcastic? Im running 12 lbs of boost, the heads had alot to do with it By the way, its only an LT1

Edit: By the way the Lt1 made 752 RWHP on motor

Chuck@

iTrader: (1)

2002Z06yellow

cartek 2X package doesnt yield 450-470 at the wheels with stock manifolds..
this is directly from their webstie:
LS-6 - STAGE 2-X HEADS
451 RWHP, 410 RWTQ NORMALLY ASPIRATED WITH "X" CAM
ON A STOCK C.I.D. 346 LS1 AND OTHER MODS
and this is a cam bigger than 224 for sure!

ShadowZ28

Truthfully the X cam is not that big at all. It's no 224 cam but it's not much bigger. Oh and the 451rwhp wasn't made with an LSX intake. That being said I'm not too impressed either. The only way I'm buying these heads is if I buy the cores and have Jay @ Absolute port and polish them. I feel if AFR who hasn't been porting LSX heads since the beginning of time can get 450 out of these heads a good head porter will be able to get alot more.

Joe

Chuck@

iTrader: (1)

Exactly!

Later,
Chuck

SScam68

iTrader: (20)

The strongest running cars have been shop cars.

This thing was put together with off the shelf parts.

IMO they look promising especially through a Vette IRS.

I am personally still waiting for more results.

Spinmonster

How about we just wait to see what they can and can't do like you say.

This would all be over of course if the heads were taken off the test car and put on a stock ZO6 or a set of stock LS6 heads were put on the test car by now. How long does it take? Or would the switch to stock LS6 heads not yeild so big a drop? (Should be ported LS6'ers to match the price.)

11 Bravo

iTrader: (3)

I think when some good porters get their hands on them then these heads will make some sick power. With the limited info (one dyno session) we have, they already look pretty sweet out of the box. Yes they will cost some bucks. Pay to play or go buy a sbc to mod.

z98

That isn't really the issue.

No one wants to spend more money to go slower.

Cstraub

iTrader: (1)

"I feel if AFR who hasn't been porting LSX heads since the beginning of time can get 450 out of these heads a good head porter will be able to get alot more.

Joe[/QUOTE]

This statement is an insult to anyone who ports heads professionally. A professional head porter has an understanding of how air "moves". He or she would be able to look at a port design and recognize the areas that need improvements. Sure someone may prefer to work on a certain head, but just because they do, doesn't limit them to only that head. If so guys like Bell, Hutter, Petelle, Neal wouldn't have numberous winning cylinder heads in all forms of racing.

Chris

TomQ

I'd like to see this heads with a very simple bolt-ons people do first thing, such as: cam (let's make it streetable and driveable - 224 may be?), famous AFR heads, long tube headers and may be catback.

I don't want buy any LSX manifold and pay almost $1000 for may be 10rwhp, etc.

Ed Curtis

Hey Thanks Tony!!!

You provide information and keep everyone here up to date on the progress of the Mongoose heads and all you get in return is internet BS...

Sounds just like what the Corral idiots did back in 1999 with the release of the AFR Ford heads...

What is it with some of you?

You crave updates and when you get them you bitch??

Talk about ungrateful...

First there was all the complaining about having to be a sponsor of this "site" to provide data and now you people complain about the testing of this new product...

AFR should just let the cards fall where they will on this new item. Drop this web advertising and let the dealers prove these heads work better than anything out there. Besides, aren't forum advertisers supposed to be "protected" from troll BS or is it only a "select few" that get saved??

Ed

"The internet is to manufacturers what the paparazzi is to celebrities...

They keep you in the public eye but you'd still like to put a bullet in their heads"

SouthFL.02.SS

Providing factual info about the heads, more important, WHEN ARE THEY OUT AND AVAILABLE, is what we would like to know.... not a..., I have the heads you want...hahahaha they are soooo good, you can't have them yet... type of post. This is plain ol' yankin' us around.

CHRISPY

why dont you tell us the specs then?

01 SS Jay

Ed,
I hear what you are saying, and its not that we are ungrateful, its just that we've been done in by hype before. Not to mention, that the testing method doesnt not show the gains the heads themselves give. I know they cant do every single test that we would want them to, but a head swap only on a stock car, and a head swap only on a car with cam, intake, headers, etc would have told us exactly what we needed to know. Thats all anyone really wanted, a "installed package with our heads" doesnt tell us much, because we cant tell where the gains came from. That type of advertising may work with other sites, but it doesnt fly with this one. I certainly appreciate Tony's efforts, and I'm sure everyone here does, but considering the audience before deciding how to test/present the results would take him a lot farther.

Just my 2 cents.
Thanks
Jason

Ed Curtis

Jason,

How many people actually install "just" the heads??? Especially a high ticket item like these "aftermarket" heads. Maybe they'll install headers or exhaust or even a filter kit but "just" heads? I seriously doubt it...

I don't speak for AFR (or Tony Mamo) but I thought Tony's approach was completely valid and correct. He used a typical non-custom, "box" camshaft with an available aftermarket intake and a set of street headers. It's pretty commonplace to use these parts when modifying an engine. No big deal to most enthusiasts...

He tested and posted the results he had at the time... Thanks!

As for the AFR slam fest... how many site "vendors" actually test just that one item, their ported stock heads, and post it here?

None!

Every test mule I've seen here and on other forums, has always been with more than one part installed on these car, whether these pieces were previously there or added during the upgrade. Never has it been just a "heads installation results" thread here or anywhere else for that matter... (That is unless it's another one of those useless "flow bench wars" threads...)

AFR "may" also have chosen to go this way (again not speaking for AFR) because of the incorrect interpretations that occured when they did up a comparison between the "new at the time" 165 Ford heads and a set of factory heads.

All they did was bolt the stock replacement type 165 heads on Rick's personal 95 GT and dynoed the car. The peak power was not great but the "delta" in HP and TQ between the stock and aftermarket cylinder heads was dramatic.

AFR was blasted all over the Ford sites for the weak HP numbers because most "so-called experts" just looked at the "peak" figures and not the increases. I fought this same kind of internet troll BS when selling these heads back then too. After a while, the "facts" came out and these heads began to sell themselves! Trolls be damned!

Now... before the "High and Mighty" in here claim they don't look at "only" the "peak" numbers... read some of the forum signatures and nearly every one of the "cam change" or "cam recommendation" threads in here. Every one of them spouts about "peak" HP figures yet not one calculates the actual "area under the curve" power numbers... Cripe, it's even mentioned in this thread!

Again, I feel the "package" approach is a great idea. Maybe because I also sell the concept of a properly designed "total package" for my customers. It just works best for customer satisfaction...

Bottomline... It still holds true that most people are not going to install "just that one part" and see what happens.... At least based on my experience and sales....

Ed

SScam68

iTrader: (20)

Very well said ED!

SouthFL.02.SS

Oh, now, we, THE CONSUMER, are trolls?
Nice one.

01 SS Jay

Ed,
Thanks for the reply. My intention was not to say that someone is "just" going to install the heads, but it would be nice to have a head to head comparison, then let us compare the deltas between stock heads and AFR heads. If there was a previous bad experience based on doing just that, well, I can understand where someone would want to take a different approach. Unfortunately, I dont think this approach really worked. You are correct, only on bolt-ons do people do a before and after of that one part. Heads/cam is a common package installation, and he got the number out of that. But cam only is becoming a popular setup since we are seeing 380+ out of those setups, and i feel that it would be great to see a cam only car dynoed before and after the head swap.

Controversy aside, i cant wait to see what they will do at the track.

Thanks
Jason