Finally pulling the trigger on parts!
11-11-2013, 08:31 AM
#722
http://www.gmhightechperformance.com...r_m9_rearends/
3.5% to 1%... and the M9 was in a more powerful car losing less.
3.5% to 1%... and the M9 was in a more powerful car losing less.
11-11-2013, 09:39 AM
#725
It adds friction and weight to the equation. So it saps something. I did it because I liked the Rollmaster I got better than any other chain at this price point. The C5R on Cloyes gears (and the gears are what matter for overall accuracy) was twice as much. The hardened Rollmaster gears are pretty nice and it's still a quality IWIS chain on there. But how much HP will it cost? Eh. Who knows.
11-11-2013, 09:46 AM
#726
TECH Fanatic
iTrader: (9)
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Georgetown, Tx
Posts: 1,053
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Honestly, the double roller was the only thing that surprised me about your build. I know how much attention you've paid to staying light weight on the top end, so I was surprised you didn't go with the C5R chain. It's no biggie, just figured you'd be all over it for parasitic loss purposes.
11-11-2013, 10:02 AM
#727
Yeah. It's one thing I went back and forth on quite a lot. The chain is of good quality. I don't regret it. If I did it again, tho, I'd do the C5R due to the pain in the *** install. But I went that way for piece of mind more than anything.
11-11-2013, 12:04 PM
#729
The MWC 9" is by far the best bang for your buck, I was quoted $1700 shipped for housing/axles/Torque arm. You just need to order it now to get it by next year. Unless the demand has died down. It and the M9 by no means weigh as much as a 10 bolt though. They are extremely light compared to a 12 bolt and standard 9". I didnt weigh mine, but I can easily pick up a 10 bolt alone, not so with the MWC 9". If it had an aluminum center section that might be a different story. I'm not trying to knock the MWC 9" at all, I would totally buy another one if I break my 8.8
I see lots of people talking bad about installing double rollers too...Ive never had an issue with one though. Is it just because people dont like the spacers?
I see lots of people talking bad about installing double rollers too...Ive never had an issue with one though. Is it just because people dont like the spacers?
11-11-2013, 12:51 PM
#730
Clearancing the front cover just adds time. Otherwise everything else isn't really a big deal. Just gotta double check everything. On the stand it's not a big deal. In the car trying to test fit the pan for any issues with pickup would be a nightmare.
But I was looking at some other sites this morning on double rollers. You don't have any slack in a double roller and they stay tighter than a single. Plus if you get a true roller with Torrington bearing as I did you actually decrease friction compared to stock while maintaining cam timing. So all in all, not a bad upgrade.
And the M9 is lighter. That's why they recommend the backbrace. To reinforce it. But 1700 is a good price. Then just buy a 9" waveloc center and be good to go!
But I was looking at some other sites this morning on double rollers. You don't have any slack in a double roller and they stay tighter than a single. Plus if you get a true roller with Torrington bearing as I did you actually decrease friction compared to stock while maintaining cam timing. So all in all, not a bad upgrade.
And the M9 is lighter. That's why they recommend the backbrace. To reinforce it. But 1700 is a good price. Then just buy a 9" waveloc center and be good to go!
11-11-2013, 01:05 PM
#731
You can always pick up a used 9", they are getting easier to find these days..
I picked mine up for $1,500
Added a used spool $125 from the classifieds here
New motive gears $200
5/8" wheel studs $80
Plus misc wheel bearings/ labor $400
I'm in it around $2,300 or so and ill probably never break it.
I picked mine up for $1,500
Added a used spool $125 from the classifieds here
New motive gears $200
5/8" wheel studs $80
Plus misc wheel bearings/ labor $400
I'm in it around $2,300 or so and ill probably never break it.
11-12-2013, 06:07 AM
#732
I always run the rollmaster double...never had any issue with the front cover. Strange.
The M9 is lighter than the MWC9? I sold mine, with T/A and LCA's for $2500...stupid I know, but I needed a truck asap.
The M9 is lighter than the MWC9? I sold mine, with T/A and LCA's for $2500...stupid I know, but I needed a truck asap.
11-13-2013, 02:05 PM
#733
Okay, so here's where I'm at now.
I pulled out my Johnson short-travel lifters and gave them a good bath and then put Joe Gibbs assembly lube on their axles and on the bodies (too hard to take a pic once I had lathered up the bodies, both fingers were gross and the phone didn't like assembly lube).
And here they are in their new home:
Next, I drilled out the rivets in the stock MLS gaskets and peeled off one of the outside layers to give me approx .040" gasket. I installed those and tightened down the TEA heads. Notice the checker springs so I can measure PtV as well.
I used a Comp Pushrod checker and got somewhere around 14.25~14.5 turns with "0" lash. It was somewhere in there. It's not an exact science but ehh. Most of the time .025" isn't a big deal... but it is with the Johnsons since they only have .058" of travel to begin with. Tony Mamo recommended I set these at .030"-.040" cold. I'd prefer to be closer to .030". So, I experimented with 15 turns on the checker when I torqued down the bolt and got about what I would consider .030" since I went past halfway and halfway would be approx .024" or so. A full turn would be too much preload and only a half would not be enough. So I figure anywhere in there would be good. I tried with both the stock GM bolts and the Trunion bolts - both were the same as a check.
So 15 turns puts me right at a 7.55" pushrod. When I was in the 14.25 turns ~ that's 7.5125" + .030" preload put me right at 7.5425". At 14.5 turns I was at 7.525 + .030" preload = 7.555". So I feel comfortable with the 7.550" pushrod. However, that's gauge length and Manton requires actual length, which generally is .017" added to the gauge length. So that puts me in the 7.5595 to 7.572 overall length range, which becomes a little more iffy. So, I'll figure that conversion and order the pushrods today. I'll also check all 16 valves to be safe with these lifters. I just checked intake and exhaust on Cylinder 6, since I knew I was on the base circle for both intake and exhaust, because Piston 1 was at TDC (and I could see it since I didn't have the other head installed - plus the crank dot was at 12 o'clock) and the cam gear dot was at 6 o'clock, letting me know I was on the base circle for Cylinder 6.
I pulled out my Johnson short-travel lifters and gave them a good bath and then put Joe Gibbs assembly lube on their axles and on the bodies (too hard to take a pic once I had lathered up the bodies, both fingers were gross and the phone didn't like assembly lube).
And here they are in their new home:
Next, I drilled out the rivets in the stock MLS gaskets and peeled off one of the outside layers to give me approx .040" gasket. I installed those and tightened down the TEA heads. Notice the checker springs so I can measure PtV as well.
I used a Comp Pushrod checker and got somewhere around 14.25~14.5 turns with "0" lash. It was somewhere in there. It's not an exact science but ehh. Most of the time .025" isn't a big deal... but it is with the Johnsons since they only have .058" of travel to begin with. Tony Mamo recommended I set these at .030"-.040" cold. I'd prefer to be closer to .030". So, I experimented with 15 turns on the checker when I torqued down the bolt and got about what I would consider .030" since I went past halfway and halfway would be approx .024" or so. A full turn would be too much preload and only a half would not be enough. So I figure anywhere in there would be good. I tried with both the stock GM bolts and the Trunion bolts - both were the same as a check.
So 15 turns puts me right at a 7.55" pushrod. When I was in the 14.25 turns ~ that's 7.5125" + .030" preload put me right at 7.5425". At 14.5 turns I was at 7.525 + .030" preload = 7.555". So I feel comfortable with the 7.550" pushrod. However, that's gauge length and Manton requires actual length, which generally is .017" added to the gauge length. So that puts me in the 7.5595 to 7.572 overall length range, which becomes a little more iffy. So, I'll figure that conversion and order the pushrods today. I'll also check all 16 valves to be safe with these lifters. I just checked intake and exhaust on Cylinder 6, since I knew I was on the base circle for both intake and exhaust, because Piston 1 was at TDC (and I could see it since I didn't have the other head installed - plus the crank dot was at 12 o'clock) and the cam gear dot was at 6 o'clock, letting me know I was on the base circle for Cylinder 6.
Last edited by JakeFusion; 11-13-2013 at 02:41 PM.
11-13-2013, 04:38 PM
#734
I never heard of someone breaking a strange 12 bolt but I guess I did now. I find it extremely hard to believe tho especially on that power level with an auto. He may have gotten a lemon.
I was leaning toward the 12 bolt because of weight like Jake mentioned and also because every Moser 12 bolt owner I encounter says their rear got loud after like 10 passes.
9" rears rob a good bit of power (around 5%) though so consider that when balancing the weight difference between an S60 and a 9". I'm still undecided between the strange 12 bolt or the S60. I was contemplating a 8.8 build and also a 9" but I know I won't be able to sleep at night if there's a F@rd part on my car, haha.
I was leaning toward the 12 bolt because of weight like Jake mentioned and also because every Moser 12 bolt owner I encounter says their rear got loud after like 10 passes.
9" rears rob a good bit of power (around 5%) though so consider that when balancing the weight difference between an S60 and a 9". I'm still undecided between the strange 12 bolt or the S60. I was contemplating a 8.8 build and also a 9" but I know I won't be able to sleep at night if there's a F@rd part on my car, haha.
11-14-2013, 01:03 PM
#735
Well all the pushrods length checked out to the same length. I verified by setting the adjustable pushrod at 15 turns and checked to see what degree the 22 ft-lbs reading gave me. It was always in the 205-210 degree range @ 22 ft-lbs. The total length with my 8" sliding caliper is 7.565" or .002" off what others have said is the difference in gauge length. Eh.
So I'm going to order 7.570" total length pushrods to give me right at .030-.035" preload. I'm adding .005" in length to the measurement, because I think I'm just below .030" preload with the Comp Adjustable pushrod, based on the math of one full turn is .047"... 210 degrees is .027". So .027" + .005" = .032" Perfect.
So I'm going to order 7.570" total length pushrods to give me right at .030-.035" preload. I'm adding .005" in length to the measurement, because I think I'm just below .030" preload with the Comp Adjustable pushrod, based on the math of one full turn is .047"... 210 degrees is .027". So .027" + .005" = .032" Perfect.
Last edited by JakeFusion; 11-14-2013 at 01:16 PM.
11-14-2013, 02:37 PM
#739
So, I bought a new oil pan gasket, and I installed in when I took the pan off to do the rod bolts. I ended up needing to go back and check something with the pickup tube after I had it all together and torqued down and am wondering should I reuse the gasket?
It looked fine. It's never been used on a pressurized motor. Any thoughts? Gasket still looked new. It was torqued down for a night...
It looked fine. It's never been used on a pressurized motor. Any thoughts? Gasket still looked new. It was torqued down for a night...
11-14-2013, 02:47 PM
#740
So, I bought a new oil pan gasket, and I installed in when I took the pan off to do the rod bolts. I ended up needing to go back and check something with the pickup tube after I had it all together and torqued down and am wondering should I reuse the gasket?
It looked fine. It's never been used on a pressurized motor. Any thoughts? Gasket still looked new. It was torqued down for a night...
It looked fine. It's never been used on a pressurized motor. Any thoughts? Gasket still looked new. It was torqued down for a night...
It takes a lot of time and street miles for the gasket rubber to flatten out like the stock gasket probably looked when you removed it.
As long as that rubber ring around the edge is still raised and spongy I would reuse it.