What's up with Comp Cams ?
05-02-2013, 10:20 AM
#262
So you know what the issue is? Is there an issue? Or is it just internet hearsay led in the back corners by more than a few vendors?
Not to be an ***, as I think you're great, but you yourself said Tick sold in January 1/2 the total number of cams Tick has sold in the past 5 years. That's a testament to you working the forums/giving out great advice. It also means you don't have a huge installed base of cams to draw from to know whether or not the issue is related to the cam or the entire combination. And as of now, you've never seen the issue. Doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Just means you haven't seen it.
Either way, that's a legit point to make. As I said, you're left fighting Comp's battles for them - and there's no one doing any analysis on why the cams failed - they just failed. When you consider the galling issue on the trunion upgrades as well, you begin to think the outsourced partner who does the surface hardening for Comp is doing some **** poor QC. Or maybe it's the oil. Or valvesprings. ?!
Even before I got off the Comp bandwagon, I was leery of their QC practices. If you recall, one of the things I was looking for was cam doctoring, because I was going to be so close with PtV and didn't want a cam 2-3 degree off or 2-3 degrees off on the ICL/LSA. But I was like that before all this happened, because that's been a known issue for years. And not just in the LS1 world.
Not to be an ***, as I think you're great, but you yourself said Tick sold in January 1/2 the total number of cams Tick has sold in the past 5 years. That's a testament to you working the forums/giving out great advice. It also means you don't have a huge installed base of cams to draw from to know whether or not the issue is related to the cam or the entire combination. And as of now, you've never seen the issue. Doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Just means you haven't seen it.
Either way, that's a legit point to make. As I said, you're left fighting Comp's battles for them - and there's no one doing any analysis on why the cams failed - they just failed. When you consider the galling issue on the trunion upgrades as well, you begin to think the outsourced partner who does the surface hardening for Comp is doing some **** poor QC. Or maybe it's the oil. Or valvesprings. ?!
Even before I got off the Comp bandwagon, I was leery of their QC practices. If you recall, one of the things I was looking for was cam doctoring, because I was going to be so close with PtV and didn't want a cam 2-3 degree off or 2-3 degrees off on the ICL/LSA. But I was like that before all this happened, because that's been a known issue for years. And not just in the LS1 world.
When guys like Good, and Tooley who have probably sold THOUSANDS of camshafts over a course of 20 years or more haven't seen these issues....what does that tell you?
You still didn't answer my questions about having ever even laying your own two eyes on a comp camshaft in person let alone ever using one. So I take that as no.
I'm really getting tired of trying to bring any kind of logic into this thread and this "cam motion" band wagon. There are other companies out there other than Cam Motion that grind great cams. We are also a dealer for Bullet Racing cams and I sell them as well. The only reason Cam Motion is even being mentioned in this thread is because of this internet "issue".
So you telling me we don't have a large pool to draw from is one thing, but you have never even used a comp camshaft before let alone even seen one. Yet you are at the forefront of this "witch hunt" and have been for months now.
I completely understand what people are saying in here abou how oils are important and they are. I also can comprehend how comp is THE biggest cam manufacture and thus they will have failures. I can even see that the demand for high ramp rate lobes has driven comp to make some aggressive things.
What I still don't agree with and the reasons I won't be purchasing a comp cam if or when the time comes is that there are SIMPLY too many cases. As many others have said in this thread it's one thing that the cams are failing. Ok it could be the set up, spring install height etc. However when sponsors like Damian and Geoff have stacks of comp trashed cams and none from lunati or cam motion, to me that throws the set up question out the window. You know those people are still running the same set up just with a different bump stick.
If comps lobes are indeed too aggressive and are destroying their own cams then to me that's mostly their fault. Other companies are making just as good of numbers with lobes that don't destroy themselves. Damian and Geoff have already commented that the failures they had seen often came from valve trains that were set up correctly. I'm not saying that some comp cams don't die because of improper set up but at a certain point you have to stop looking at the set ups and start examining the cam.
Martin has always been great and is awesome at what he does and I would gladly have a cam specs by him. However if I did I would either want it ground by cam motion or have it done on an 8620 core. Nothing against him but there are simply too many failures for this to be an isolated thing. I would also make sure it's a regularly bought cam or have a degree wheel ready seeing as many people report custom cams to be very off. Like it or not comp has done this to themselves and have lost a lot of good business from this getting out here
What I still don't agree with and the reasons I won't be purchasing a comp cam if or when the time comes is that there are SIMPLY too many cases. As many others have said in this thread it's one thing that the cams are failing. Ok it could be the set up, spring install height etc. However when sponsors like Damian and Geoff have stacks of comp trashed cams and none from lunati or cam motion, to me that throws the set up question out the window. You know those people are still running the same set up just with a different bump stick.
If comps lobes are indeed too aggressive and are destroying their own cams then to me that's mostly their fault. Other companies are making just as good of numbers with lobes that don't destroy themselves. Damian and Geoff have already commented that the failures they had seen often came from valve trains that were set up correctly. I'm not saying that some comp cams don't die because of improper set up but at a certain point you have to stop looking at the set ups and start examining the cam.
Martin has always been great and is awesome at what he does and I would gladly have a cam specs by him. However if I did I would either want it ground by cam motion or have it done on an 8620 core. Nothing against him but there are simply too many failures for this to be an isolated thing. I would also make sure it's a regularly bought cam or have a degree wheel ready seeing as many people report custom cams to be very off. Like it or not comp has done this to themselves and have lost a lot of good business from this getting out here
Damian and Geoff don't sell lunati camshafts so how could they have "piles" of cams that were failed from them?
We don't sell Cam Motion camshafts, but we are a dealer for Bullet Racing which I use frequently as well.
I'm done posting in this thread as it keeps getting more and more from the reality that is the real world and more and more internet fiction.
Last edited by Sales@Tick; 05-02-2013 at 10:27 AM.
05-02-2013, 11:08 AM
#263
TECH Fanatic
Holy crap. I had nothing to do today after my kid fell asleep on me this morning so I picked up the phone and started to read the last 10 pages of this thread. I am curious as to why it seems like people aren't listening to Martin here. I have read those exact pages on websites and in catalogs in my research as to what can to buy for my daily driver 04 CTS-V. Yea a vicious cam sounds good but am I gonna get 100k out of it? Hell no, 100 passes at the strip, sure. Its simple logic, comp says that certain cam lobes are going to be rough on your top end, buy a different ones. You can't blame them for getting a grind's specs, making the grind and sending it out. They are just doing what is requested of them. I don't see how it's their fault really. Car stuff just breaks sometimes. Its not a cheap hobby in any way. I'm still going to try and save enough to order my cam next year from Tick, if it's a comp grind that's fine with me, if not that's fine too. Is for a daily driver and I don't expect 500 billion HP from it, but I expect it to be capable and reliable enough to do 160mph on a banked oval at Fontana's Roval and then take the kid to school on Monday. If it gets messed up will I be pissed, probably but that's the game we play with cars. If you want a cheap hobby... Buy a hampster.
05-02-2013, 01:05 PM
#264
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Hi NASCARguy,
Do you mean HTHS Vis. as in the link below?
http://www.hddeo.com/hthsarticle.html
Christian
Do you mean HTHS Vis. as in the link below?
http://www.hddeo.com/hthsarticle.html
Christian
05-02-2013, 01:16 PM
#265
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05-02-2013, 01:20 PM
#266
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Yes. It is critical. In our NASCAR engine development, we never looked at SAE viscosity grades, we played with HTHS. How low could we go on HTHS without getting into trouble. The same SAE grade oil can have different HTHS values, so that in something you have to look out for. Like that article says, an HTHS of 3.5 or greater is good for Heavy Duty use.
HTHS Vis. cP @ 150*C: 4.7
Phosphorus: 1200 ppm
Zinc: 1330 ppm
Can be daily driven on long Oil Change Interval...
Christian
05-02-2013, 06:52 PM
#269
Whether or not there is an issue, that is not what I was speaking about, and I don't believe there is an issue. I believe that there are improperly specified set-ups out there that are causing the lifters to basically tear the cam apart. Hell even damian said himself, "the cam failed causing the lifter to fail". I've never heard anyone other than him ever say that a cam failing takes out a lifter. I've heard it the other way around many times. Unless you spintron test that theory, you will NEVER know so yes it is hearsay.
When guys like Good, and Tooley who have probably sold THOUSANDS of camshafts over a course of 20 years or more haven't seen these issues....what does that tell you?
You still didn't answer my questions about having ever even laying your own two eyes on a comp camshaft in person let alone ever using one. So I take that as no.
I'm really getting tired of trying to bring any kind of logic into this thread and this "cam motion" band wagon. There are other companies out there other than Cam Motion that grind great cams. We are also a dealer for Bullet Racing cams and I sell them as well. The only reason Cam Motion is even being mentioned in this thread is because of this internet "issue".
So you telling me we don't have a large pool to draw from is one thing, but you have never even used a comp camshaft before let alone even seen one. Yet you are at the forefront of this "witch hunt" and have been for months now.
Being comps fault for having lobes that are too aggressive is like blaming the gun and bullet for shooting someone. The person that had the cam ground should be at fault. It states in the description of the LSK lobes and XER lobes that they are very hard on parts and that they are their most aggressive lobes to date. I guess no one reads disclaimers or heeds warnings anymore. That's like diving into a 4 ft. section of the pool after looking at the picture of the guy on the concrete at your feet breaking his neck from doing so.
Damian and Geoff don't sell lunati camshafts so how could they have "piles" of cams that were failed from them?
We don't sell Cam Motion camshafts, but we are a dealer for Bullet Racing which I use frequently as well.
I'm done posting in this thread as it keeps getting more and more from the reality that is the real world and more and more internet fiction.
When guys like Good, and Tooley who have probably sold THOUSANDS of camshafts over a course of 20 years or more haven't seen these issues....what does that tell you?
You still didn't answer my questions about having ever even laying your own two eyes on a comp camshaft in person let alone ever using one. So I take that as no.
I'm really getting tired of trying to bring any kind of logic into this thread and this "cam motion" band wagon. There are other companies out there other than Cam Motion that grind great cams. We are also a dealer for Bullet Racing cams and I sell them as well. The only reason Cam Motion is even being mentioned in this thread is because of this internet "issue".
So you telling me we don't have a large pool to draw from is one thing, but you have never even used a comp camshaft before let alone even seen one. Yet you are at the forefront of this "witch hunt" and have been for months now.
Being comps fault for having lobes that are too aggressive is like blaming the gun and bullet for shooting someone. The person that had the cam ground should be at fault. It states in the description of the LSK lobes and XER lobes that they are very hard on parts and that they are their most aggressive lobes to date. I guess no one reads disclaimers or heeds warnings anymore. That's like diving into a 4 ft. section of the pool after looking at the picture of the guy on the concrete at your feet breaking his neck from doing so.
Damian and Geoff don't sell lunati camshafts so how could they have "piles" of cams that were failed from them?
We don't sell Cam Motion camshafts, but we are a dealer for Bullet Racing which I use frequently as well.
I'm done posting in this thread as it keeps getting more and more from the reality that is the real world and more and more internet fiction.
Again Martin I would never try to disrespect you in any way so please don't take it like that. Good and Tooley have sold no doubt thousands of cams, no one said comp had always had an issue it seems to be a fairly new thing. And I don't feel it's a cam motion band wagon. They make a good product, are well known and people like them. Nothing wrong with that comp used to get the same recognition. I wouldn't hesitate to have them lunati bullet or crane grind me a cam.
Also Damian doesn't sell comps anymore but that doesn't stop him from pulling them out of people cars? I feel thats a moot statement. If a large number of cams from other makers were going bad I imagine he'd be pulling them out too.
Also as far as blaming the gun for killing someone I believe that differs slightly. Comp does put those disclaimers in their catalogs and that's great. And the customer is responsible ultimately. You don't see comp footing the bills for the repairs? But in the end since the lobes are destructive like that they shouldn't really be making them. Again some failures could be due to improper valve train set up but you have to draw the line somewhere. If it's not setup it's the lobes and of it's not the lobes it's the blanks. And after all the things I've seen before this thread and now I highly doubt they're ALL set up errors.
The customer should and is responsible for what they put in but the maker should also not be making parts that are marketed for a non track only car that are so aggressive they destroy themselves during street driving....
Last edited by redbird555; 05-02-2013 at 06:58 PM.
05-03-2013, 07:57 AM
#271
As for the disclaimers, yes and no. They put race only, but that could mean a lot of things...not emmissions legal, rough idle, etc. When I plug in my build into their cam selector, the "best" fit cams are both XER lobes with the only disclaimer being race only. Honestly I have learned a lot through this discussion and from Martins analysis of various cams. But I saw no where on their disclaimer saying you must use special oil, springs and pushrods or the cam will eat itself and take out the motor with it potentially. I think most performance comsumers have come to ignore "Race only" and "For off road use onyl" warnings as they seem to apply to anything that makes decent power, lol.
05-03-2013, 10:16 AM
#272
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I’m not convinced that there is any problem with Comp Cams LS1 cams. Sure there are pictures of several cams that in a pile. I noticed that there were no close up pics of the end of the cams though. No part numbers/serial numbers were given. I’ve installed and ran Comp Cams in my personal cars for many years now, and won’t stop anytime soon. When I install a cam in my Vette in the next few weeks, it will be a Comp.
I’ve found some of the comments amusing. Not to pick on anyone, but there is certainly some faulty logic…
Redbird555 said, “Also as far as blaming the gun for killing someone I believe that differs slightly. Comp does put those disclaimers in their catalogs and that's great. And the customer is responsible ultimately. You don't see comp footing the bills for the repairs? But in the end since the lobes are destructive like that they shouldn't really be making them. Again some failures could be due to improper valve train set up but you have to draw the line somewhere. If it's not setup it's the lobes and of it's not the lobes it's the blanks. And after all the things I've seen before this thread and now I highly doubt they're ALL set up errors.”
I disagree completely with this. If Comp didn’t make competition grinds, then what would the drag race guys use? Comp has a lot of lobes in their Master lobe catalog that are not recommended for street use. If you go to the rear of the book, there are Pro Stock lobes with over 1.2” of valve lift. Should Comp stock making those lobes too? After all, those lobes are hard on parts.
Sarg said, “As for the disclaimers, yes and no. They put race only, but that could mean a lot of things...not emmissions legal, rough idle, etc. When I plug in my build into their cam selector, the "best" fit cams are both XER lobes with the only disclaimer being race only. Honestly I have learned a lot through this discussion and from Martins analysis of various cams. But I saw no where on their disclaimer saying you must use special oil, springs and pushrods or the cam will eat itself and take out the motor with it potentially. I think most performance comsumers have come to ignore "Race only" and "For off road use onyl" warnings as they seem to apply to anything that makes decent power, lol.”
I had to pull my lobe catalog to check the warnings, but this is what it says about the LSK lobes, “They are VERY hard on parts and not generally recommended for street applications!”. That being said, I wouldn’t hesitate to install one of these in a race car.
Sarg is right about then not have a disclaimer about special oil. As a matter of fact, they don’t have a disclaimer about oil at all. Maybe we don’t need any oil in our engines? lol
I’ve found some of the comments amusing. Not to pick on anyone, but there is certainly some faulty logic…
Redbird555 said, “Also as far as blaming the gun for killing someone I believe that differs slightly. Comp does put those disclaimers in their catalogs and that's great. And the customer is responsible ultimately. You don't see comp footing the bills for the repairs? But in the end since the lobes are destructive like that they shouldn't really be making them. Again some failures could be due to improper valve train set up but you have to draw the line somewhere. If it's not setup it's the lobes and of it's not the lobes it's the blanks. And after all the things I've seen before this thread and now I highly doubt they're ALL set up errors.”
I disagree completely with this. If Comp didn’t make competition grinds, then what would the drag race guys use? Comp has a lot of lobes in their Master lobe catalog that are not recommended for street use. If you go to the rear of the book, there are Pro Stock lobes with over 1.2” of valve lift. Should Comp stock making those lobes too? After all, those lobes are hard on parts.
Sarg said, “As for the disclaimers, yes and no. They put race only, but that could mean a lot of things...not emmissions legal, rough idle, etc. When I plug in my build into their cam selector, the "best" fit cams are both XER lobes with the only disclaimer being race only. Honestly I have learned a lot through this discussion and from Martins analysis of various cams. But I saw no where on their disclaimer saying you must use special oil, springs and pushrods or the cam will eat itself and take out the motor with it potentially. I think most performance comsumers have come to ignore "Race only" and "For off road use onyl" warnings as they seem to apply to anything that makes decent power, lol.”
I had to pull my lobe catalog to check the warnings, but this is what it says about the LSK lobes, “They are VERY hard on parts and not generally recommended for street applications!”. That being said, I wouldn’t hesitate to install one of these in a race car.
Sarg is right about then not have a disclaimer about special oil. As a matter of fact, they don’t have a disclaimer about oil at all. Maybe we don’t need any oil in our engines? lol
05-03-2013, 10:31 AM
#273
Comp puts those disclaimers out. But a lot of people buy "Custom" cams from vendors and don't even know what lobes they are running.
I think you could point your finger at a couple of vendors who sell LSK lobes for "street applications" and don't warn folks of what could happen. Or they recommend more spring to control the valve at the expensive of the rest of the valvetrain. But they just sell the parts, they don't install or set up the parts. I would guess a lot of failures of LS7 lifters or rockers have something to do with those kind of setups.
Caveat emptor.
I think you could point your finger at a couple of vendors who sell LSK lobes for "street applications" and don't warn folks of what could happen. Or they recommend more spring to control the valve at the expensive of the rest of the valvetrain. But they just sell the parts, they don't install or set up the parts. I would guess a lot of failures of LS7 lifters or rockers have something to do with those kind of setups.
Caveat emptor.
05-03-2013, 10:38 AM
#274
What did the XER lobes say? Only thing online was "Race only" that I saw. I do not have the benefit of a comp catalog though and my guess would be that most modern consumers just go by what is said on their website.
As for the oil smart ***, if they thought that certain lobes were failing due to oil with lower zinc content, don't you feel they would allow the consumer to know about this? Maybe something letting folks know that high zinc or zddp oil should be used with certain lobes? Quite honestly after being out of the domestic world for many years, this is the first I have heard about all this mess. Maybe the Ausies that grind cams for Kelford have learned something comp has not. Never used any special oils other than synthetic in my builds with those cams and never had any issues. I used what I felt was good quality oil such as Pennzoil and Mobile 1 and never had any issues.
As for the oil smart ***, if they thought that certain lobes were failing due to oil with lower zinc content, don't you feel they would allow the consumer to know about this? Maybe something letting folks know that high zinc or zddp oil should be used with certain lobes? Quite honestly after being out of the domestic world for many years, this is the first I have heard about all this mess. Maybe the Ausies that grind cams for Kelford have learned something comp has not. Never used any special oils other than synthetic in my builds with those cams and never had any issues. I used what I felt was good quality oil such as Pennzoil and Mobile 1 and never had any issues.
05-03-2013, 11:47 AM
#276
I run m1 0w40 and it still has a higher ZDDP level than most off shelf oils but not like the Rotella 15w40. I'm up here in new england and I would not wanna run 15w or even 10w. Anyone know if there is a 0w or 5w oil that has the recommended ZDDP?
05-03-2013, 12:18 PM
#277
Comp puts those disclaimers out. But a lot of people buy "Custom" cams from vendors and don't even know what lobes they are running.
I think you could point your finger at a couple of vendors who sell LSK lobes for "street applications" and don't warn folks of what could happen. Or they recommend more spring to control the valve at the expensive of the rest of the valvetrain. But they just sell the parts, they don't install or set up the parts. I would guess a lot of failures of LS7 lifters or rockers have something to do with those kind of setups.
Caveat emptor.
I think you could point your finger at a couple of vendors who sell LSK lobes for "street applications" and don't warn folks of what could happen. Or they recommend more spring to control the valve at the expensive of the rest of the valvetrain. But they just sell the parts, they don't install or set up the parts. I would guess a lot of failures of LS7 lifters or rockers have something to do with those kind of setups.
Caveat emptor.
05-03-2013, 01:29 PM
#280
I’m not convinced that there is any problem with Comp Cams LS1 cams. Sure there are pictures of several cams that in a pile. I noticed that there were no close up pics of the end of the cams though. No part numbers/serial numbers were given. I’ve installed and ran Comp Cams in my personal cars for many years now, and won’t stop anytime soon. When I install a cam in my Vette in the next few weeks, it will be a Comp.
I’ve found some of the comments amusing. Not to pick on anyone, but there is certainly some faulty logic…
Redbird555 said, “Also as far as blaming the gun for killing someone I believe that differs slightly. Comp does put those disclaimers in their catalogs and that's great. And the customer is responsible ultimately. You don't see comp footing the bills for the repairs? But in the end since the lobes are destructive like that they shouldn't really be making them. Again some failures could be due to improper valve train set up but you have to draw the line somewhere. If it's not setup it's the lobes and of it's not the lobes it's the blanks. And after all the things I've seen before this thread and now I highly doubt they're ALL set up errors.”
I disagree completely with this. If Comp didn’t make competition grinds, then what would the drag race guys use? Comp has a lot of lobes in their Master lobe catalog that are not recommended for street use. If you go to the rear of the book, there are Pro Stock lobes with over 1.2” of valve lift. Should Comp stock making those lobes too? After all, those lobes are hard on parts.
Sarg said, “As for the disclaimers, yes and no. They put race only, but that could mean a lot of things...not emmissions legal, rough idle, etc. When I plug in my build into their cam selector, the "best" fit cams are both XER lobes with the only disclaimer being race only. Honestly I have learned a lot through this discussion and from Martins analysis of various cams. But I saw no where on their disclaimer saying you must use special oil, springs and pushrods or the cam will eat itself and take out the motor with it potentially. I think most performance comsumers have come to ignore "Race only" and "For off road use onyl" warnings as they seem to apply to anything that makes decent power, lol.”
I had to pull my lobe catalog to check the warnings, but this is what it says about the LSK lobes, “They are VERY hard on parts and not generally recommended for street applications!”. That being said, I wouldn’t hesitate to install one of these in a race car.
Sarg is right about then not have a disclaimer about special oil. As a matter of fact, they don’t have a disclaimer about oil at all. Maybe we don’t need any oil in our engines? lol
I’ve found some of the comments amusing. Not to pick on anyone, but there is certainly some faulty logic…
Redbird555 said, “Also as far as blaming the gun for killing someone I believe that differs slightly. Comp does put those disclaimers in their catalogs and that's great. And the customer is responsible ultimately. You don't see comp footing the bills for the repairs? But in the end since the lobes are destructive like that they shouldn't really be making them. Again some failures could be due to improper valve train set up but you have to draw the line somewhere. If it's not setup it's the lobes and of it's not the lobes it's the blanks. And after all the things I've seen before this thread and now I highly doubt they're ALL set up errors.”
I disagree completely with this. If Comp didn’t make competition grinds, then what would the drag race guys use? Comp has a lot of lobes in their Master lobe catalog that are not recommended for street use. If you go to the rear of the book, there are Pro Stock lobes with over 1.2” of valve lift. Should Comp stock making those lobes too? After all, those lobes are hard on parts.
Sarg said, “As for the disclaimers, yes and no. They put race only, but that could mean a lot of things...not emmissions legal, rough idle, etc. When I plug in my build into their cam selector, the "best" fit cams are both XER lobes with the only disclaimer being race only. Honestly I have learned a lot through this discussion and from Martins analysis of various cams. But I saw no where on their disclaimer saying you must use special oil, springs and pushrods or the cam will eat itself and take out the motor with it potentially. I think most performance comsumers have come to ignore "Race only" and "For off road use onyl" warnings as they seem to apply to anything that makes decent power, lol.”
I had to pull my lobe catalog to check the warnings, but this is what it says about the LSK lobes, “They are VERY hard on parts and not generally recommended for street applications!”. That being said, I wouldn’t hesitate to install one of these in a race car.
Sarg is right about then not have a disclaimer about special oil. As a matter of fact, they don’t have a disclaimer about oil at all. Maybe we don’t need any oil in our engines? lol
No where did I say they should not make competition lobes with 1" of lift. So I don't really see a valid point in your statement. You were making some far fetched claims, no ones putting 1.2" lift cams in their street cars.