What's up with Comp Cams ?
04-23-2013, 11:35 AM
#41
I don't think you are bias, fair question, perhaps they do have an issue with material, that is not out of the question. I wonder if setup is also playing a part, old lifter trays, too much pre-load etc. Futral has had issues in the past, read plenty about lunati as well... I still would not run just any oil in these cars, especially with more aggressive lobes and spring pressures.
04-23-2013, 11:41 AM
#42
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well as mentioned before it could just be the popularity of the cams.This is the first time i've heard of the additives though.Should i throw some in my car?No cats or erg.
04-23-2013, 12:14 PM
#43
Today's oil is definitely some of the problem. All the zinc was pulled from most oils due to catalytic converter damage and new emissions regulations. Zinc is a key factor against wear protection.
That being said, I've got customers on the road clocking 40-50K (and counting) on their Cam Motion camshafts with no issues. You MIGHT pulled 15K out of a Comp camshaft before it's totally wiped out. I've seen severe lobe wear as quickly as 1500 miles.
Another big issue with Comp is their camshafts being 3-5 degrees off the ICL they said it was. Anybody who's put a wheel on a Comp cam knows exactly what I'm talking about. Those spec sheets they send are extremely generic and their inaccuracies can be dangerous for the DIY "dot to dot" guys. 3-5 degrees can mean the difference between PTV contact or not, which most DIY'ers also do not check. Especially on these giant 20* or more overlap camshafts.
That being said, I've got customers on the road clocking 40-50K (and counting) on their Cam Motion camshafts with no issues. You MIGHT pulled 15K out of a Comp camshaft before it's totally wiped out. I've seen severe lobe wear as quickly as 1500 miles.
Another big issue with Comp is their camshafts being 3-5 degrees off the ICL they said it was. Anybody who's put a wheel on a Comp cam knows exactly what I'm talking about. Those spec sheets they send are extremely generic and their inaccuracies can be dangerous for the DIY "dot to dot" guys. 3-5 degrees can mean the difference between PTV contact or not, which most DIY'ers also do not check. Especially on these giant 20* or more overlap camshafts.
Last edited by Damian; 04-23-2013 at 12:21 PM.
04-23-2013, 12:17 PM
#44
All the tests I've seen tells me there's really only a handful of oils we should even be considering.
Valvoline VR1 Conventional and Amsoil Z-Rod. I wouldn't touch anything else.
I buy VR1 by the case from Amazon. You can get at Autozone and O'Reilly's too.
Both are high in ZDDP, but so are a lot of other oils. The difference is these oils don't sheer and provide the best cushion as well as wear resistance on the market.
Valvoline VR1 Conventional and Amsoil Z-Rod. I wouldn't touch anything else.
I buy VR1 by the case from Amazon. You can get at Autozone and O'Reilly's too.
Both are high in ZDDP, but so are a lot of other oils. The difference is these oils don't sheer and provide the best cushion as well as wear resistance on the market.
04-23-2013, 12:19 PM
#45
All the tests I've seen tells me there's really only a handful of oils we should even be considering.
Valvoline VR1 Conventional and Amsoil Z-Rod. I wouldn't touch anything else.
I buy VR1 by the case from Amazon. You can get at Autozone and O'Reilly's too.
Both are high in ZDDP, but so are a lot of other oils. The difference is these oils don't sheer and provide the best cushion as well as wear resistance on the market.
Valvoline VR1 Conventional and Amsoil Z-Rod. I wouldn't touch anything else.
I buy VR1 by the case from Amazon. You can get at Autozone and O'Reilly's too.
Both are high in ZDDP, but so are a lot of other oils. The difference is these oils don't sheer and provide the best cushion as well as wear resistance on the market.
The Lucas additive is a good substitute. I buy them by the case @ Advance Auto Parts.
04-23-2013, 12:37 PM
#46
10W-30 is available. It's actually thinner than German Castrol, which I still use in my other cars.
And like I said, even motor oil with high ZDDP doesn't ensure adequate protection. Joe Gibbs, Red Line, and Royal Purple all have high ZDDP oils, but sheer at much lower thresholds than VR1 or Z-Rod.
And like I said, even motor oil with high ZDDP doesn't ensure adequate protection. Joe Gibbs, Red Line, and Royal Purple all have high ZDDP oils, but sheer at much lower thresholds than VR1 or Z-Rod.
04-23-2013, 12:42 PM
#47
I would agree, car oil mfrs are being forced by federal law to reduce the anti-wear additives in their oils (as little as 400 ppm zddp in some brands), as they can damage emission equipment over time, i.e. the cats specifically...its being going for a decade or two with gradual reduction over the years. That is why I have switched to Rotella T6 5w-40 which has around 1200 ppm ZDDP and I still add some zddp additive. I have noticed the valve train is a bit quieter with the T6. The problem is even worse in classic cars that solid lifters etc..In any event, more aggressive spring pressures and cam lobes need a little more protection than stock valvetrain.
Rotella T6
Valvoline VR1
Amsoil
some Mobil 1 product lines have a high amount
http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/...duct_Guide.pdf
Rotella T6
Valvoline VR1
Amsoil
some Mobil 1 product lines have a high amount
http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/...duct_Guide.pdf
I don't think you are bias, fair question, perhaps they do have an issue with material, that is not out of the question. I wonder if setup is also playing a part, old lifter trays, too much pre-load etc. Futral has had issues in the past, read plenty about lunati as well... I still would not run just any oil in these cars, especially with more aggressive lobes and spring pressures.
Today's oil is definitely some of the problem. All the zinc was pulled from most oils due to catalytic converter damage and new emissions regulations. Zinc is a key factor against wear protection.
That being said, I've got customers on the road clocking 40-50K (and counting) on their Cam Motion camshafts with no issues. You MIGHT pulled 15K out of a Comp camshaft before it's totally wiped out. I've seen severe lobe wear as quickly as 1500 miles.
Another big issue with Comp is their camshafts being 3-5 degrees off the ICL they said it was. Anybody who's put a wheel on a Comp cam knows exactly what I'm talking about. Those spec sheets they send are extremely generic and their inaccuracies can be dangerous for the DIY "dot to dot" guys. 3-5 degrees can mean the difference between PTV contact or not, which most DIY'ers also do not check. Especially on these giant 20* or more overlap camshafts.
That being said, I've got customers on the road clocking 40-50K (and counting) on their Cam Motion camshafts with no issues. You MIGHT pulled 15K out of a Comp camshaft before it's totally wiped out. I've seen severe lobe wear as quickly as 1500 miles.
Another big issue with Comp is their camshafts being 3-5 degrees off the ICL they said it was. Anybody who's put a wheel on a Comp cam knows exactly what I'm talking about. Those spec sheets they send are extremely generic and their inaccuracies can be dangerous for the DIY "dot to dot" guys. 3-5 degrees can mean the difference between PTV contact or not, which most DIY'ers also do not check. Especially on these giant 20* or more overlap camshafts.
http://www.speedtalk.com/forum/viewt...hp?f=1&t=34926
04-23-2013, 01:27 PM
#49
I hope I don't jinx myself, but I guess I've been lucky that I've never seen any of these "failures". The last 4-5 cams I've installed were no more than 1 degree off, if that, and two in particular have survived a brutal weekend at the Texas Mile.
Several years ago, my former employer would use Cam Motion almost exclusively, and every now and then, I saw that their cams were off too. Sometimes, they even got more accurate when a different timing set was used...
Several years ago, my former employer would use Cam Motion almost exclusively, and every now and then, I saw that their cams were off too. Sometimes, they even got more accurate when a different timing set was used...
04-23-2013, 01:36 PM
#50
I've used Comp Cams in all of my builds over the last 16 years (both SBC and LSx), and that includes hydraulic flat tappet setups. I've never had a camshaft failure. I don't use junk oil either.
04-23-2013, 02:55 PM
#52
Older cars with freshly rebuilt flat tappet engines need to have some sort of additive.
04-23-2013, 02:59 PM
#53
If you follow some sort of reasonable oil change interval, based on your driving habits, then you do not need special oil. You probably don't even need synthetic. Run whatever is the correct weight and meets the oil specs in your owner's manual.
Has anyone here ever heard of an LS1 "wearing out" or blowing up because of the wrong brand oil? I haven't.... it has always been due to abuse, bad oem design (early oil pumps), improper part selection, or someone letting their pan go dry.
Last edited by Grimes; 04-23-2013 at 03:10 PM.
04-23-2013, 03:00 PM
#54
Exactly. If you have a modern roller lifter motor, the lower ZDDP levels of the newer oils are not going to take out a camshaft. Otherwise there would be mass engine failures in newer cars.
Older cars with freshly rebuilt flat tappet engines need to have some sort of additive.
Older cars with freshly rebuilt flat tappet engines need to have some sort of additive.
04-23-2013, 03:10 PM
#56
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Reply from Comp Cams I would like to share a reply from Comp Cams to my questions about type of Material,Tolerances, and Concerns we normal folk have..lol.
Take note of the link at the end of the reply. hope this helps
Here goes...
"Hello Plustiano and thank you for signing up on CPG Nation!!!
Comp Cams uses various materials to make camshafts depending on what is best for that individual engine and application. We use a wide array of materials due to the fact that we cover a very wide variety of engines. Austempered cam cores are not used in LS applications nor have they ever been by our company. Our LS cams are made predominantly from 5160 or 8620 material. Either the 5160 or 8620 material is more than capable of handling any Hyd. Roller LS application. The difference in materials used has no effect on quality control what so ever and I am not sure what would lead you, or anyone else, to believe that it would. Also all of our cores are produced in the US and come from 1 of 2 sources. These are the same sources that sell cam cores to most every cam manufacturer out there, including the OE manufacturers. I can assure you that no “cheap” or overseas core is ever used in a Comp Cams product. When grinding a camshaft the core specifications must be as close as possible to the finished cam grind specs in order to maintain the deepest possible heat treat. That is why Comp has the largest selection of cam cores in the industry.
Comp maintains some of the highest quality control standards of any camshaft manufacturer in the world. Our cam grinds will be closer to the specs on your card versus any other grinder. We see less than 1% defect rates in our LS cams, which is lower than any other manufacturer that I am aware of. Also there has been no consistent heat treat issue of any type that I am aware of. This is not to say there has never been individual issues, but nothing that has been a continual issue. While it is certainly true that we are not perfect and we do encounter the occasional issue with one of our parts, we do try very hard to ensure that problems are very minimal and we have kept it at a level of less than 1% regarding LS camshafts.
Tolerances for our cams are:
Lobe Separation: +/- 1 degree
Advance: +/- 2 degrees if specified
Duration @.050: +2.5/-1.0 degrees
Lobe Lift: +.003/-.004
We do care about our customers and their projects because we rely on them for our livelihood. We strive to make the best performing and the longest lasting product possible. No company is perfect, but we do try. Also, if a customer has a problem with a product we do everything we can to help fix it.
I would also like to direct you toward a press release put out by Driven Engine Oil. It highlights the importance of proper engine oil especially in LS engines.
Driven Press Release
http://www.autopressreleases.com/vie...se.php?id=1324 "
__________________
Matt Maxwell
Technical Consultant
COMP Performance Group
Take note of the link at the end of the reply. hope this helps
Here goes...
"Hello Plustiano and thank you for signing up on CPG Nation!!!
Comp Cams uses various materials to make camshafts depending on what is best for that individual engine and application. We use a wide array of materials due to the fact that we cover a very wide variety of engines. Austempered cam cores are not used in LS applications nor have they ever been by our company. Our LS cams are made predominantly from 5160 or 8620 material. Either the 5160 or 8620 material is more than capable of handling any Hyd. Roller LS application. The difference in materials used has no effect on quality control what so ever and I am not sure what would lead you, or anyone else, to believe that it would. Also all of our cores are produced in the US and come from 1 of 2 sources. These are the same sources that sell cam cores to most every cam manufacturer out there, including the OE manufacturers. I can assure you that no “cheap” or overseas core is ever used in a Comp Cams product. When grinding a camshaft the core specifications must be as close as possible to the finished cam grind specs in order to maintain the deepest possible heat treat. That is why Comp has the largest selection of cam cores in the industry.
Comp maintains some of the highest quality control standards of any camshaft manufacturer in the world. Our cam grinds will be closer to the specs on your card versus any other grinder. We see less than 1% defect rates in our LS cams, which is lower than any other manufacturer that I am aware of. Also there has been no consistent heat treat issue of any type that I am aware of. This is not to say there has never been individual issues, but nothing that has been a continual issue. While it is certainly true that we are not perfect and we do encounter the occasional issue with one of our parts, we do try very hard to ensure that problems are very minimal and we have kept it at a level of less than 1% regarding LS camshafts.
Tolerances for our cams are:
Lobe Separation: +/- 1 degree
Advance: +/- 2 degrees if specified
Duration @.050: +2.5/-1.0 degrees
Lobe Lift: +.003/-.004
We do care about our customers and their projects because we rely on them for our livelihood. We strive to make the best performing and the longest lasting product possible. No company is perfect, but we do try. Also, if a customer has a problem with a product we do everything we can to help fix it.
I would also like to direct you toward a press release put out by Driven Engine Oil. It highlights the importance of proper engine oil especially in LS engines.
Driven Press Release
http://www.autopressreleases.com/vie...se.php?id=1324 "
__________________
Matt Maxwell
Technical Consultant
COMP Performance Group
04-23-2013, 03:15 PM
#57
So people with aftermarket valvetrains should use oils with more ZDDP? I could buy into that, although there are many on this forum that run regular off the shelf castrol or m1, and seem to be okay. It's hard to say without a rigorous scientific study.
04-23-2013, 03:43 PM
#60
Read the link I posted earlier. There are brands out there with less ZDDP and work beautifully because of their sheering factor. Look at what oil made #1. It only had 806 ppm of zinc compared to the rest. Its capability to protect against metal to metal contact is why it made #1. As I said before Valvoline VR1 10w30 conventional or synthetic is the best in my eyes. I do agree with you though on regular oil change intervals and so forth but no matter 100 miles or 3000 miles, wouldn't you want the best in there?