Help me pick my cam....
06-28-2013, 11:08 AM
#22
XE-R lobes have always made power. To me, they are still the gold standard for power production. However, since EPS lobes are essentially the same with better valvetrain dynamics, I would recommend them.
Plus, with EPS cams, you get them ground on Billet Cam Motion cores and you get a cam doctor report with the cam. Those two things make an EPS cam worth more than a custom Comp cam.
Plus, with EPS cams, you get them ground on Billet Cam Motion cores and you get a cam doctor report with the cam. Those two things make an EPS cam worth more than a custom Comp cam.
I agree futral is another great shop and I believe they also using cam motion blanks.
06-28-2013, 12:11 PM
#23
The cam card Comp sends you are just the catalog values. What Cam Motion sends you is the cam doctor report of the actual lobes on your cam. They put it on the cam doctor and it spits out what your lobes actually measure and what LSA/ICL the cam is on.
It's basically giving you the report at dot to dot, so you already know your valve events. No real need to degree a cam that has a cam doctor report unless you just want to verify you have the ICL correct. Degreeing a cam isn't hard when the motor is out of the car. It's a pain in the *** when the motor is installed... So, this kind of gives you a way around that while still ensuring your cam is properly installed. I would HIGHLY recommend degreeing any custom Comp cam to make sure the valve events are close...
It's basically giving you the report at dot to dot, so you already know your valve events. No real need to degree a cam that has a cam doctor report unless you just want to verify you have the ICL correct. Degreeing a cam isn't hard when the motor is out of the car. It's a pain in the *** when the motor is installed... So, this kind of gives you a way around that while still ensuring your cam is properly installed. I would HIGHLY recommend degreeing any custom Comp cam to make sure the valve events are close...
06-28-2013, 12:32 PM
#24
FWIW we just degreed another Comp cam yesterday that had 6 degrees of ICL advance ground into the cam. It was supposed to be on a 104 ICL and it came out on a 103.75 ICL.
I can say this till I'm blue in the face I guess, but the least 15-20 cams we've degreed from Comp were all within .5-.75 of a degree within what they were supposed to be. I'll take that any day of the week.
As far as the LSG lobes are concerned I've tried them several times and I was not impressed. They're loud as hell, they're just as quick off the seat as Jake pointed out, but don't have quite the valve curtain area(.200 numbers) that a XE-R lobe has. They are pretty much just XFI/LXL lobes.
Now the lobes that EPS uses now from Cam Motion are obviously not LSG lobes from Comp anymore, so this statement doesn't hold any water as I've not seen or had a EPS cam in front of me since they switched to CM.
Before anyone says it's impossible that I could of had LSG lobes ground, all of our "mild" lobed SNS cams used to be ground on EPS lobes, but after the first 3-4 customers received their cams and had audible valve-train noise I've since switched to LXL lobes for the "mild" lobed SNS cams. They are nearly inaudible. The "standard" SNS cams are still ground on LSL lobes and do have a slight amount of audible noise, but from what we've experienced other than Stroked383HR's cam install, the LSL lobes on intake and exhaust are very quiet as well. Not as quiet as the LXL lobes(they sound stock), but still quieter than the more aggressive lobes.
I can say this till I'm blue in the face I guess, but the least 15-20 cams we've degreed from Comp were all within .5-.75 of a degree within what they were supposed to be. I'll take that any day of the week.
As far as the LSG lobes are concerned I've tried them several times and I was not impressed. They're loud as hell, they're just as quick off the seat as Jake pointed out, but don't have quite the valve curtain area(.200 numbers) that a XE-R lobe has. They are pretty much just XFI/LXL lobes.
Now the lobes that EPS uses now from Cam Motion are obviously not LSG lobes from Comp anymore, so this statement doesn't hold any water as I've not seen or had a EPS cam in front of me since they switched to CM.
Before anyone says it's impossible that I could of had LSG lobes ground, all of our "mild" lobed SNS cams used to be ground on EPS lobes, but after the first 3-4 customers received their cams and had audible valve-train noise I've since switched to LXL lobes for the "mild" lobed SNS cams. They are nearly inaudible. The "standard" SNS cams are still ground on LSL lobes and do have a slight amount of audible noise, but from what we've experienced other than Stroked383HR's cam install, the LSL lobes on intake and exhaust are very quiet as well. Not as quiet as the LXL lobes(they sound stock), but still quieter than the more aggressive lobes.
06-28-2013, 02:13 PM
#25
FWIW we just degreed another Comp cam yesterday that had 6 degrees of ICL advance ground into the cam. It was supposed to be on a 104 ICL and it came out on a 103.75 ICL.
I can say this till I'm blue in the face I guess, but the least 15-20 cams we've degreed from Comp were all within .5-.75 of a degree within what they were supposed to be. I'll take that any day of the week.
As far as the LSG lobes are concerned I've tried them several times and I was not impressed. They're loud as hell, they're just as quick off the seat as Jake pointed out, but don't have quite the valve curtain area(.200 numbers) that a XE-R lobe has. They are pretty much just XFI/LXL lobes.
Now the lobes that EPS uses now from Cam Motion are obviously not LSG lobes from Comp anymore, so this statement doesn't hold any water as I've not seen or had a EPS cam in front of me since they switched to CM.
Before anyone says it's impossible that I could of had LSG lobes ground, all of our "mild" lobed SNS cams used to be ground on EPS lobes, but after the first 3-4 customers received their cams and had audible valve-train noise I've since switched to LXL lobes for the "mild" lobed SNS cams. They are nearly inaudible. The "standard" SNS cams are still ground on LSL lobes and do have a slight amount of audible noise, but from what we've experienced other than Stroked383HR's cam install, the LSL lobes on intake and exhaust are very quiet as well. Not as quiet as the LXL lobes(they sound stock), but still quieter than the more aggressive lobes.
I can say this till I'm blue in the face I guess, but the least 15-20 cams we've degreed from Comp were all within .5-.75 of a degree within what they were supposed to be. I'll take that any day of the week.
As far as the LSG lobes are concerned I've tried them several times and I was not impressed. They're loud as hell, they're just as quick off the seat as Jake pointed out, but don't have quite the valve curtain area(.200 numbers) that a XE-R lobe has. They are pretty much just XFI/LXL lobes.
Now the lobes that EPS uses now from Cam Motion are obviously not LSG lobes from Comp anymore, so this statement doesn't hold any water as I've not seen or had a EPS cam in front of me since they switched to CM.
Before anyone says it's impossible that I could of had LSG lobes ground, all of our "mild" lobed SNS cams used to be ground on EPS lobes, but after the first 3-4 customers received their cams and had audible valve-train noise I've since switched to LXL lobes for the "mild" lobed SNS cams. They are nearly inaudible. The "standard" SNS cams are still ground on LSL lobes and do have a slight amount of audible noise, but from what we've experienced other than Stroked383HR's cam install, the LSL lobes on intake and exhaust are very quiet as well. Not as quiet as the LXL lobes(they sound stock), but still quieter than the more aggressive lobes.
I believe he's using the same LSG type lobes now at Cam Motion seeing as they are his design and trademarked under the EPS insignia, I cant imagine why he would use cam motions design.
Not saying you're wrong Martin as I value your opinion a lot just confused a bit lol
06-28-2013, 04:40 PM
#29
The LSG wasn't designed to be quiet. I actually have my cam ground LSG/LXL because the LSG lobes are noisy as hell. They slam the valves shut as bad or worse than XE-R lobes. The LXL lobe is designed for a softer landing. And generally speaking, the exhaust valve is where the noise comes from, thus the design parameters of my cam.
06-28-2013, 04:43 PM
#30
The one thing I don't like about your cam Jake is the IVC event. I feel it's a solid grind, but I think you gave up a lot by closing the intake valve that late.
When people hear the words "mild" or "endurance" the last thing that they're expecting is a noisy valve train though.
As far as the valve train noise and where it comes from, you're preaching to the choir there.
When people hear the words "mild" or "endurance" the last thing that they're expecting is a noisy valve train though.
As far as the valve train noise and where it comes from, you're preaching to the choir there.
06-28-2013, 05:09 PM
#31
I know. It's late as hell. I wanted low overlap and to clear without flycutting. When I measure, watch me have no ptv clearance. At which point, I'll say f it all, flycut, mill down to 59cc and get something bigger. Which is what I wrestled with anyway when I considered the Polluter, if you recall.
I still don't know if I want 16+ degrees of overlap. Of course, everything about the car is over the top now. Ain't no sense in trying to keep it sane LOL
I still don't know if I want 16+ degrees of overlap. Of course, everything about the car is over the top now. Ain't no sense in trying to keep it sane LOL
06-28-2013, 05:46 PM
#32
The LSG wasn't designed to be quiet. I actually have my cam ground LSG/LXL because the LSG lobes are noisy as hell. They slam the valves shut as bad or worse than XE-R lobes. The LXL lobe is designed for a softer landing. And generally speaking, the exhaust valve is where the noise comes from, thus the design parameters of my cam.
06-28-2013, 07:42 PM
#33
Wait lol now I'm confused. I thought the lsg lobes were just the technical name for Geoffs EpS lobes that started being made in 09 or there about. However as I recall those lives are supposed to be engineered to be very quiet and easy on the valve train? Or are the lxl lobes the eps design?
06-28-2013, 08:35 PM
#34
LSG are endurance profiles. It has less curtain area than either LSL or XE-R, fast seat-to-seat ramp equal to XE-R, and is designed for way less jerk than XE-R, similar to LSL. Essentially, it makes the power of the XE-R within an endurance profile envelope since it is not a "square" lobe. LXL is LSL with a slower seat-to-seat ramp, because it's designed to close softer. LSG closes as hard as XE-R, which is a touch worse than LSL IIRC.
06-29-2013, 11:02 AM
#36
LSG are endurance profiles. It has less curtain area than either LSL or XE-R, fast seat-to-seat ramp equal to XE-R, and is designed for way less jerk than XE-R, similar to LSL. Essentially, it makes the power of the XE-R within an endurance profile envelope since it is not a "square" lobe. LXL is LSL with a slower seat-to-seat ramp, because it's designed to close softer. LSG closes as hard as XE-R, which is a touch worse than LSL IIRC.
Stall speed. IMO he needs at least a 4400 stall to take advantage of that late of a closing event. His build isn't an all out max effort setup and he is giving up huge torque under 4500rpm just to gain 5-10 peak numbers. The one thing he has going for him is compression. With a long runner oem style intake the latest I've ever closed the intake valve is 48 degrees abdc. Stock 3.622 stroke of course.
06-29-2013, 01:20 PM
#38
Bingo. Although until I saw a lxl lobe on a cam pro analysis, I thought it was a meek and mild lobe profile. Wrong. Damn thing has nearly identical accel/jerk values as a lsl lobe does.
Stall speed. IMO he needs at least a 4400 stall to take advantage of that late of a closing event. His build isn't an all out max effort setup and he is giving up huge torque under 4500rpm just to gain 5-10 peak numbers. The one thing he has going for him is compression. With a long runner oem style intake the latest I've ever closed the intake valve is 48 degrees abdc. Stock 3.622 stroke of course.
Stall speed. IMO he needs at least a 4400 stall to take advantage of that late of a closing event. His build isn't an all out max effort setup and he is giving up huge torque under 4500rpm just to gain 5-10 peak numbers. The one thing he has going for him is compression. With a long runner oem style intake the latest I've ever closed the intake valve is 48 degrees abdc. Stock 3.622 stroke of course.
I finally went with a 4000 stall... actually it'll be more like a 4200 in my car.
This year.
06-29-2013, 02:06 PM
#39
Bingo. Although until I saw a lxl lobe on a cam pro analysis, I thought it was a meek and mild lobe profile. Wrong. Damn thing has nearly identical accel/jerk values as a lsl lobe does.
Stall speed. IMO he needs at least a 4400 stall to take advantage of that late of a closing event. His build isn't an all out max effort setup and he is giving up huge torque under 4500rpm just to gain 5-10 peak numbers. The one thing he has going for him is compression. With a long runner oem style intake the latest I've ever closed the intake valve is 48 degrees abdc. Stock 3.622 stroke of course.
Stall speed. IMO he needs at least a 4400 stall to take advantage of that late of a closing event. His build isn't an all out max effort setup and he is giving up huge torque under 4500rpm just to gain 5-10 peak numbers. The one thing he has going for him is compression. With a long runner oem style intake the latest I've ever closed the intake valve is 48 degrees abdc. Stock 3.622 stroke of course.
06-29-2013, 05:49 PM
#40
The head is a 225cc, so it's not small for a 346. About as big as I'd want to run. I'm checking PtV this week as I'm into my build. If I'm too close, which is possible, I will mill the heads down some more and flycut. That would only improve the cam's response. I may also pull it and get a slightly larger grind...