Looking for HUGE torque
07-19-2013, 09:47 PM
#43
I can't speak for the OP, but when I asked around about getting more low end torque out of a 6.0, all i got was answers for lower gears and higher stall. That wasn't the question i asked. I know those will help the feel of the car but each has its own set of drawbacks, i.e. higher heat, more wear, reduced fuel economy, etc.
I have decided to go with a t56 on my build so I'm not limited by the stock converter anymore, but my goal remains the same, to get the engine to produce the most low end torque I can.
I know for me atleast, I was hesitant to put a stall converter on my stock trans because I planned to have a 4l80 built later on and didn't want to waste the money. But since I was already going to be in the motor, why not go ahead and do the cam upgrade.
I have decided to go with a t56 on my build so I'm not limited by the stock converter anymore, but my goal remains the same, to get the engine to produce the most low end torque I can.
I know for me atleast, I was hesitant to put a stall converter on my stock trans because I planned to have a 4l80 built later on and didn't want to waste the money. But since I was already going to be in the motor, why not go ahead and do the cam upgrade.
You are fairly uneducated on this topic.
MODERN high stall torque converters do NOT offer much in the way of heat issues.
LUGGING an engine is worse for fuel economy then some extra rpm. STUPID people blindly ASSume that higher road speed makes for lower fuel mileage due to the extra rpm but it is the extra wind resistance at higher speed that is the culprit more than anything else.
A T56 needs deep gears3.90-4.10 being right by most accounts, to be able to use the double OD effectively so we are back to gears being a great mod.
Far as the 4L80, guys run 9s on the 4L60E if you can see past marketing bullshit and buy a good one.
On the mileage thing take my vehicles my mid 11 second Caprice sedan(3800stall 4.10s heads/cam LT1 that sees 6900 or so at the shifts) at 18mpg mixed the same drive with a bone stock caprice sedan with 2.56 gears netted a whopping 21mpg.
The sedan has nearly double the HP nearly 3 times the stall speed(stock was 1400) and 65% more rearend gear and actually slightly shorter tires too. All that and only a few MPG down, roughly 15% down given all that.
There was a time when I was afraid of gears and stall and then I got a clue and my car got a LOT faster. It went from being cammed and slower than most bolton cars to being fastest NA stock shortblock b-body for a time.
This hobby is a bitch if you wont learn from other people's mistakes and blindly defend your own.
07-19-2013, 09:57 PM
#44
Ai, Livernois, or TEA LS6 heads will make more torque and power than the 5.3s.
AFR 210s would still be the king of part-throttle torque.
The problem with this line of thinking is you will have a higher stall torque converter and gears. You will not want SBC torque. You will not have any traction and the car will be useless below 50mph.
AFR 210s would still be the king of part-throttle torque.
The problem with this line of thinking is you will have a higher stall torque converter and gears. You will not want SBC torque. You will not have any traction and the car will be useless below 50mph.
07-20-2013, 08:58 AM
#46
torque is great, but the idea that you can add gobs of it to the low rpm side of the stock curve is just wrong.
They think you can gain lots off idle and it just doesn't work that way. As your graph shows you can be making more by 3000rpm but if you had a graph at 1200 I think you would be down from stock and that is why you have a higher stall not only for the low rpm multiplication but to get the engine up to the meat of the torque curve.
I know you understand that, just writting it for the other guys.
They think you can gain lots off idle and it just doesn't work that way. As your graph shows you can be making more by 3000rpm but if you had a graph at 1200 I think you would be down from stock and that is why you have a higher stall not only for the low rpm multiplication but to get the engine up to the meat of the torque curve.
I know you understand that, just writting it for the other guys.
07-20-2013, 09:20 AM
#47
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Optimal? I would say what you propose is the best bang for the buck. There are certainly other combos that make more power, but at a much higher cost. I think you'll be happy with those heads and that cam. Make sure you get decent valve springs to match.
07-20-2013, 01:37 PM
#48
Get this in your head: There is no 'Perfect' combination. Everything is a tradeoff. You want high rpm power and torque? Low end is going to suffer. Want lots of low end? High RPM power is going to be down. What you need to do is figure out want you want to accomplish, then figure out the combination of parts that gets you closest to this goal.
07-21-2013, 10:46 AM
#49
You are fairly uneducated on this topic.
MODERN high stall torque converters do NOT offer much in the way of heat issues.
LUGGING an engine is worse for fuel economy then some extra rpm. STUPID people blindly ASSume that higher road speed makes for lower fuel mileage due to the extra rpm but it is the extra wind resistance at higher speed that is the culprit more than anything else.
A T56 needs deep gears3.90-4.10 being right by most accounts, to be able to use the double OD effectively so we are back to gears being a great mod.
Far as the 4L80, guys run 9s on the 4L60E if you can see past marketing bullshit and buy a good one.
On the mileage thing take my vehicles my mid 11 second Caprice sedan(3800stall 4.10s heads/cam LT1 that sees 6900 or so at the shifts) at 18mpg mixed the same drive with a bone stock caprice sedan with 2.56 gears netted a whopping 21mpg.
The sedan has nearly double the HP nearly 3 times the stall speed(stock was 1400) and 65% more rearend gear and actually slightly shorter tires too. All that and only a few MPG down, roughly 15% down given all that.
There was a time when I was afraid of gears and stall and then I got a clue and my car got a LOT faster. It went from being cammed and slower than most bolton cars to being fastest NA stock shortblock b-body for a time.
This hobby is a bitch if you wont learn from other people's mistakes and blindly defend your own.
MODERN high stall torque converters do NOT offer much in the way of heat issues.
LUGGING an engine is worse for fuel economy then some extra rpm. STUPID people blindly ASSume that higher road speed makes for lower fuel mileage due to the extra rpm but it is the extra wind resistance at higher speed that is the culprit more than anything else.
A T56 needs deep gears3.90-4.10 being right by most accounts, to be able to use the double OD effectively so we are back to gears being a great mod.
Far as the 4L80, guys run 9s on the 4L60E if you can see past marketing bullshit and buy a good one.
On the mileage thing take my vehicles my mid 11 second Caprice sedan(3800stall 4.10s heads/cam LT1 that sees 6900 or so at the shifts) at 18mpg mixed the same drive with a bone stock caprice sedan with 2.56 gears netted a whopping 21mpg.
The sedan has nearly double the HP nearly 3 times the stall speed(stock was 1400) and 65% more rearend gear and actually slightly shorter tires too. All that and only a few MPG down, roughly 15% down given all that.
There was a time when I was afraid of gears and stall and then I got a clue and my car got a LOT faster. It went from being cammed and slower than most bolton cars to being fastest NA stock shortblock b-body for a time.
This hobby is a bitch if you wont learn from other people's mistakes and blindly defend your own.
07-21-2013, 10:51 AM
#50
torque is great, but the idea that you can add gobs of it to the low rpm side of the stock curve is just wrong.
They think you can gain lots off idle and it just doesn't work that way. As your graph shows you can be making more by 3000rpm but if you had a graph at 1200 I think you would be down from stock and that is why you have a higher stall not only for the low rpm multiplication but to get the engine up to the meat of the torque curve.
I know you understand that, just writting it for the other guys.
They think you can gain lots off idle and it just doesn't work that way. As your graph shows you can be making more by 3000rpm but if you had a graph at 1200 I think you would be down from stock and that is why you have a higher stall not only for the low rpm multiplication but to get the engine up to the meat of the torque curve.
I know you understand that, just writting it for the other guys.
Some people want to be the fastest at the track, others just want to have a dump truck motor.
07-21-2013, 03:43 PM
#52
If you know more than everyone else why ask questions.
The diesel answer above is as good a answer to what you want as you will get.
On the tranny thing another detail is the 4L60E has a deeper first gear for more torque to the tires and a better OD ratio to keep rpms down.
I get wanting a torquey motor but even at that gears and stall are advisable, they are the absolute best way to get more torque to the tires.
Sure headers, CAI some compression might help but the SOTP difference wont even begin to compare to what stall and gears can do and the idea that stall has to be bad for heat and manners is grossly outdated.
You are calling me stubborn but what are you? You don't like the answer so you think negatively about the person that gave it.
The diesel answer above is as good a answer to what you want as you will get.
On the tranny thing another detail is the 4L60E has a deeper first gear for more torque to the tires and a better OD ratio to keep rpms down.
I get wanting a torquey motor but even at that gears and stall are advisable, they are the absolute best way to get more torque to the tires.
Sure headers, CAI some compression might help but the SOTP difference wont even begin to compare to what stall and gears can do and the idea that stall has to be bad for heat and manners is grossly outdated.
You are calling me stubborn but what are you? You don't like the answer so you think negatively about the person that gave it.
07-21-2013, 05:49 PM
#53
If you know more than everyone else why ask questions.
The diesel answer above is as good a answer to what you want as you will get.
On the tranny thing another detail is the 4L60E has a deeper first gear for more torque to the tires and a better OD ratio to keep rpms down.
I get wanting a torquey motor but even at that gears and stall are advisable, they are the absolute best way to get more torque to the tires.
Sure headers, CAI some compression might help but the SOTP difference wont even begin to compare to what stall and gears can do and the idea that stall has to be bad for heat and manners is grossly outdated.
You are calling me stubborn but what are you? You don't like the answer so you think negatively about the person that gave it.
The diesel answer above is as good a answer to what you want as you will get.
On the tranny thing another detail is the 4L60E has a deeper first gear for more torque to the tires and a better OD ratio to keep rpms down.
I get wanting a torquey motor but even at that gears and stall are advisable, they are the absolute best way to get more torque to the tires.
Sure headers, CAI some compression might help but the SOTP difference wont even begin to compare to what stall and gears can do and the idea that stall has to be bad for heat and manners is grossly outdated.
You are calling me stubborn but what are you? You don't like the answer so you think negatively about the person that gave it.
07-21-2013, 11:36 PM
#54
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Bowtie, I'm sorry but caprice is laying it on you straight as an arrow and you are one hard headed little f-er. You don't understand how engines work. Long tubes do not create off idle torque they do the exact opposite, they take it away. Heads and cams are LESS efficient off idle then stock junk, when you tune you TAKE AWAY fuel in the lower rpms when you mod. You just don't get this concept. You want big torque, change engines, BC an ls1 may not be for you.
07-22-2013, 12:30 AM
#55
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^^^ this, the absolute best way to accomplish your "huge torque" goal is to go with a stroker motor. There are numerous stroker setups you can pick up, starting with 383CI going all the way up to LSX 454. Just something over the 400 CI would suite u well. For a cost effective build I'd recommend an LQ4/9 and build a 408 CI stroker.
07-22-2013, 10:53 AM
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Ok well from what I'm reading on here, it sounds like I'll be pretty happy with a good stall and gears for torque. But what I'm really asking is what cam and head combo that would add the most torque in the low to mid range?
07-22-2013, 12:54 PM
#57
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Be more specific. What is your low to mid-range?
07-22-2013, 01:30 PM
#58
Why do you want tq? I have a big comp lsr and a tight converter, hooks up until the car hits 4000 rpms then blows the tires off? I'm not into that, but my car has a super tight converter and no gear at all... 3.73. If you want to spin the tires get a high stall, some gears, and save your money. Roll around on stock size summer tires. It doesn't sound like you really know what you want.
07-22-2013, 03:54 PM
#60
I'll say it again. With stall and gears you're going to need drag radials on the street to have traction. Even with a stock motor.
And with stall and gears, anything under 3k rpm is pretty much a waste. You give it a little gas and you are at 3k instantly. Give it more and you're at 6500 because your tires just lit up.
And with stall and gears, anything under 3k rpm is pretty much a waste. You give it a little gas and you are at 3k instantly. Give it more and you're at 6500 because your tires just lit up.