I need your advice. Just got my 6-speed '01 Firehawk T/A back from the shop last night. I need your help because I am truly disappointed and pissed. With just lid/LT's and borla my car put down 344rwhp/361 tq. After torque 2 install it made 366rwhp/346 tq through motive 3.73's and 18x10.5 OE wheels rims wearing BFG 295's. The overall install was a nightmare. I was quoted at 12hrs of labor, but 19 days later I got the car back. There was lots more hours of labor to come that the shop owner gave me free as they tried to fix my issues. This shop has a good reputation and they encountered issues like header exhaust leaks, pushrod length issues and plug issues. After the cam was initially installed, I got the dreaded (we have a small problem phone call). I was told the Texas Speed pushrods they had installed were 7.450 length. I cannot confirm the true length; however I ordered 7.400....they were in the car so I had to take their word. Car made a best pull of 379rwhp/358tq with the pushrods reported to be too long. I was then told I had bad lifter tick from a few stock LS1 lifters "bleeding down". They then took the pushrods out, measured them using a pushrod checking tool and cam back to me saying my car needed 7.350's. Now......I don't know enough to comfortably do this cam install myself; however I'm on this board a lot. I do a lot of reading and nowhere have I ever seen or heard of any TV2 cam guys running 7.350's! I've seen one reported to run 7.375's and most everyone else 7.400-7.425's. Also, I originally bought the Texas Speed cam kit with the dual valve springs. This was the first time I was told, "your car developed bad lifter tick". I was told they were too much for the stock lifters and I then purchased the texas speed single beehive springs which remain installed now. After 19 days of waiting for "bad calls" telling me of new issues, plans to fix and such I received good news....."your car is ready". I was very excited; however driving home, the car had this loud ticking sound that would come and go; although it would come 85% of the time. To me it appears to get louder with throttle; however I can at times hear it at idle. I know to get to the lifters, I would have to have the heads removed. I planned to do some TSP LS6 heads next year. I punched it a few times yesterday and I could feel the SOTP improvement and it destroyed the tires on a 1-2 shift, but I hate the ticking noise and drop in rwhp that was reported to me. The shop was 87.7 degrees when tuning. My car's exhaust is loud with the wide open borla and I love the roar on exceleration and the lopey 112 LSA idle. To me....the car feel significantly underpowered for what I was expecting. It drives fine and was tuned well, but things just don't seem right.

Now that I've given you background, here's my questions: 1) Do you think the 7.350 pushrods are too short? 2) Do you think the dual valve springs were too much for stock lifters? 3) Car lost 13 rwhp from initial 379rwhp to 366rwhp in a week. Only thing swapped out was the dual valve springs for the beehives......lifters are still loud as ****. I think the 7.350 pushrods have changed the specs of the cam. The shop owner was nice and truly tried to work with me; however after this 19 day nightmare and spending $3K+ plus having an underpowered, lifter ticking, dyno tuned Bird......I feel very frustrated. I gave these guys 19 days of communication to fix my issues. I just don't feel comfortable with all this right now. My intent is not to trash the shop at all, hence why I did not mention their name. The guys are great. That however does not make my situation better. I post my situation to gain sound advice from the experts on how to fix my situation. My car never had issues prior to this install, but I also know with all mods we accept the inherent risks. Just sucks to be on this side of things. Please let me know what you think and answer my questions.

 

Very sorry for your troubles.

You need to MEASURE for correct pushrod length. This is a very simple procedure, I recommend you do this yourself and confirm you have the correct length. Don't take it back to that "shop", its very clear that they have no clue what they are doing. Who knows what else they screwed up.

FYI, I'm running new GM lifters (0.045" preload), Comp pushrods from TSP, AFR dual springs (135lb on seat), and a 224 cam. My valvetrain is very quiet.

Good luck, hope you get it fixed soon.

 

The LS engine has a known "sewing machine" sorta valvtrain sound and most
V2 and V3 guys report considerably more valvtrain noise even when set up
with new LS7 lifters and proper length push rods as the cam lobes are quite
aggressive. I'm not saying you don't potentially have some pooped out lifters
but the higher spring pressures (dual or BH) and the cams lobes are really
taxing those things. Also I'd bet that 7.425 is the correct length push rod for
your set up....GL2YA

 

This sucks! Sorry to hear about this..

I know your looking for a answer on how to fix this but that will be difficult since your not doing the labor yourself..

There are so many variables on what happend but pushrod length should have been checked properly and lifter preload checked..

I would advise against driving your car so you don't make it worse until you can fix this..

Was the shop that did this a vendor here?

 

The pushrods seem short but the only true way to know is to measure what you need. There is a pretty good chance the whole issue started because of failing lifters. The biggest reason no one says to automatically swap out those stockers with a new cam swap is because it takes a lot more work and perhaps money to do so. Most people don't want to hear they might need to replace lifters, in order to swap a cam. That would mean head gaskets, head bolts and the lifters themselves. Not to mention the labor if you are paying someone. Its just more common to use the wait and see method. The stock lifters do fail occasionally with larger cams.

As for springs, the double springs are the recommended spring for the v.2.

 

+1 ^^

I know people get away with it, but lifters, oil pump, new oil pump o ring should be changed when doing heads/cam or just a cam build...

Supporting mods do just that, support! Especially with a 10-15 yr old engine..

 

i have a torquer 2 with a 112 lsa and i used ls7 lifters with tsp 7.4 pushrods and prc dual springs. i have alot of valvetrain noise but i expected that with an aggressive cam. seems like a perfect combo cuz i put down 409rwhp 377rwtq. I say replace ur lifters with ls7's

 

Hey guys, thanks for all the input and feedback! I am trying not to just go mushroom cloud but that won't solve anything. Yes, I agree things cost way more when not doing it yourself. I would like that skill set. I know my limitations and that's why I took it to a "professional shop". They are not a vendor on here. I took the risk and got burned. Now my focus is on getting it right. I saved up a lot of $$ and don't believe in just going cheap. I thought I could just do lifters when I do heads next year, but after this experience I may not ever do that. Either way I'm kind of forced to in order to get at the lifters anyway so I'll plan on some LS7 lifters in the future. For now, I'm going get those 7.350 pushrods out of my engine and put some 7.400's back in. Thanks dudes and if anyone has anymore helpful advice, please chime in. I appreciate you guys.

 

Sorry for your bad news. It's a shame people get taken advantage of.

First: a cam swap does not take 12 hours. Although I would always suggest to replace lifters, chain and pump.
Second: you should ALWAYS measure pushrods length AND PTV clearance. Most of us don't measure ptv in our garage installs as long as the cam is a "shelf cam" like yours. Although the pushrods are something to measure unless you spoke with tsp and they guaranteed them to work. ( they will say should but you better measure)
Third: I hope you still have the double springs that came with the original kit? The double spring is what you should be using and you were lied to by this "shop" that said they were to much. If the spring is set up properly ( install height and coil bind measured) they will work great as many other people with similar TSP products will attest.
Don't drive the car until you can take it to some one that knows what they are doing.
I'm sure your not trying to bash the shop that did the work, but you really should let everyone know who it was so we don't get taken advantage of for 3k+.

 

did they even dyno tuned the car? Heres what i did the to car when i did the cam swap:

ls7 lifters
arp head bolts
tsp ported oil pump
n-motion billet timing chain
tsp 7.4 chromoly pushrods
decked the heads for even surface.
stock felpro mls headgasket
pacesetter headers with catted y-pipe
svo 30lb injectors
dynotune

 

^^

Good question. Was the car tuned?

 

The 7.350" pushrods and the beehive springs need to be swapped out. The Torquer cams use more aggressive lobes, and the beehive springs simply just do not have enough pressure for a cam like this. The power loss is very likely due to the spring swap. The dual springs really are needed. The shop I work at typically uses 7.425" pushrods and a good dual spring kit on stock lifters without issue.

Most shops familiar to LS powered cars can swap the cam and springs in about a day. On higher mileage older cars, like the 4th gen fbodies, unexpected issues always come up which adds to the scope of work as well as delays in turnaround time. We usually see something as minor as a leaky gasket or bad O2 sensor to something more catastrophic like a cracked sleeve. Without knowing both sides of the story, I'm hesitant to bash on the shop doing the work for the amount of time to do the work.

 

don't take it back to that shop

 

I'm running the v2 with Ls6 head 7.4 rods brain tooley duals and ls7 lifters, I have no sowing machine noise I got the guild from Martin @tick performance on how to install the rockers as well, i had the sewing machine noise until then, but Yea 7.350 seems a little to short... Texas speed sells a comp cam pr length checker for like 20 bucks..

 

Yes, my car was dyno tuned. Hit 379rwhp/361 tq w/PRC dual valve & original 7.400-7.425 pushrods that came with my kit. After the shop swapped the 7.350 push rods in with the dual springs the car pumped out an anemic 366rwhp/346 tq. I knew something was way off and questioned them further. I was then informed that the beehive springs would be best as the duals were just too stout. This continued my ongoing 19 day ordeal. I know this car is hiding horsepower. It's always been strong. I do feel a power increase (SOTP) but not nearly what I had anticipated. 366rwhp/346 tq max after swapping in a decent cam like the TV2 seems unacceptable to me. Am I correct?? I also still have the dual springs back like new in the box. I contacted the shop who will swap the 7.400's that came with my TSP cam kit at no additional cost. I don't think I'll take it back there to have the dual springs put back in. Why would TSP offer the beehives with the TV2 if it was not going to be a good match? I have heard some guys running the beehives. Someone please educate me. I originally bought the dual valve spring upgrade w/my kit for added assurance and to have them in already for future mods.

Anyone know who's great with LS engines in the Dayton Ohio area? Again, I won't trash the shop. That's not my style. They are working with me at this point. I just wanted to hear from you guys who I do trust on Tech. My focus now is not to drag anybody's business through the dirt. I just am focused on finding out the correct information to make my car right. I am very appreciative for all of the opinions and personal experience shared in my thread. At least I have a starting point now to get this mess fixed. Thanks!

 

IMHO, the beehives work and in some applications, they would work well. On others, not so much. Consider if you had ported heads with bigger and heavier aftermarket valves. The valve train would be REALLY unstable, and you could have lost more power if not hurt the engine.

On TSP's website, it looks like they've done the purchaser a favor and at least limited what cams you can choose in their kits so that you don't pick a .650" lift cam with .625" lift springs, but they can't really help with what a "good match" would be unless you talked with one of their sales reps personally. There are just too many different combos out there. We have always dealt with Matt @ TSP over email and he always willing to make sure we get the right parts the first time.

 

I don't live in Ohio so I can not recommend any one. But there are several members on the forum that do and should be able to help. Maybe start a different thread like " help Ohio" or something along those lines. Also, and this gets said all the time, but try the search function. I'm on my phone now but later ill dig up some Ohio boys contact information

 

Did a search and PM'd a couple of Ohio guys, so I'll wait to hear back. Thanks for your help.

 

PM sent for some contact info in and around Dayton

 

Yea I would call TSP as well they are really good at helping plus if they recommended you the duals that's what I would have ran, i got my cam separate and only heard Doug things about Brian's spring so I called him "really good guy" and he told.me which springs I should run so I went with those, i didn't get a dyno yet for numbers, I blew my bottom end my fault but will be getting numbers up real soon after my build