Mast LS3 Small Bore Heads
09-28-2013, 02:42 PM
#22
Well, I would agree Mast could do what Ed can do, but that's not the point I was making. The point was if a highly respected and experienced LS man such as Ed or Mast think this is a valid Head for good power, and believe there is a market for it, there has to be a reason. Generally people that are interested in making money like to make products that customers will buy in order that they can make money.
I agree with Dr. Whigham here, if we can see some solid results from LS3 small bores and the pricing can be reasonable, there maybe a move away from the cathedral group think. Don't get me wrong I am currently running cathedrals, and they make good power, but there is a reason the new LT engine family is running square ports.
I truly feel the reason shops like to push cathedral heads is because they KNOW what the results will be. Since most shops aren't sure of the results of small bore LS3's they won't push them b/c of what a customer may expect. Also, they aren't sure of what cam would be good with the small bores since there is so little experience with them out there. ED is'nt scare here, and I look forward to your combo setup Dr!
I agree with Dr. Whigham here, if we can see some solid results from LS3 small bores and the pricing can be reasonable, there maybe a move away from the cathedral group think. Don't get me wrong I am currently running cathedrals, and they make good power, but there is a reason the new LT engine family is running square ports.
I truly feel the reason shops like to push cathedral heads is because they KNOW what the results will be. Since most shops aren't sure of the results of small bore LS3's they won't push them b/c of what a customer may expect. Also, they aren't sure of what cam would be good with the small bores since there is so little experience with them out there. ED is'nt scare here, and I look forward to your combo setup Dr!
09-28-2013, 03:46 PM
#23
Dave, this place is like a herd of sheep. Where one goes, all follow. Everyone always says and does the same thing, like a herd of sheep. A lot of people questioned the AI Dart/RHS CNC'd heads I'm running now, but I love them and they make great power throughout the RPM range. To this day, I'm still the only one running them. I applaud you for being the wolf in this pack of sheep. If Ed endorses them and says they will make great power, then who cares what these Internet experts say.
09-28-2013, 04:00 PM
#24
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Dave, this place is like a herd of sheep. Where one goes, all follow. Everyone always says and does the same thing, like a herd of sheep. A lot of people questioned the AI Dart/RHS CNC'd heads I'm running now, but I love them and they make great power throughout the RPM range. To this day, I'm still the only one running them. I applaud you for being the wolf in this pack of sheep. If Ed endorses them and says they will make great power, then who cares what these Internet experts say.
Rushhour over at LS1GTO was running a set of my hand ported Dart heads on his LS1. (and now on his stroker) He sure proved running against the "herd' works well, if you know how to do it.
/carry on
09-28-2013, 04:05 PM
#25
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I'm going to go out on a limb here and say the new 5.3 uses the square port heads because of cost and it has VCT to help with torque down low <3k rpm, which may not be a concern when comparing a peak dyno number or in a drag car that is only concerned about the power up high 4500+...just my 2cents, looking forward to the new results though.
Cam phasing can help both ways. There's a shop (roughly 30 miles from you) that designed a VCT cam for an LS3, that puts down 495 in a stalled auto and spins to 7500. They port quite a few LS3/7 heads as well.
Dave, this place is like a herd of sheep. Where one goes, all follow. Everyone always says and does the same thing, like a herd of sheep. A lot of people questioned the AI Dart/RHS CNC'd heads I'm running now, but I love them and they make great power throughout the RPM range. To this day, I'm still the only one running them. I applaud you for being the wolf in this pack of sheep. If Ed endorses them and says they will make great power, then who cares what these Internet experts say.
09-28-2013, 08:12 PM
#29
Too much is made on this site of overpriced heads that don't offer **** over more budget friendly options.
You make power by optimizing your combo and paying attention to detail. The $1k more you'd pay for heads to get 5HP you could make by spending 4 hours setting up your valvetrain properly.
09-28-2013, 08:15 PM
#30
If you want to pick up over the AFR 205s you have, the hand ported TFS 220s from Tooley or TFS 215s would be my choice. Even then, you aren't going to gain a whole heck of a lot.
09-28-2013, 09:16 PM
#32
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It's not really out of the box thinking. LS3 heads have been around since 08. I'm not pissing on your idea. Just pointing out that I considered this for about 1 second before I said no.
If you want to pick up over the AFR 205s you have, the hand ported TFS 220s from Tooley or TFS 215s would be my choice. Even then, you aren't going to gain a whole heck of a lot.
If you want to pick up over the AFR 205s you have, the hand ported TFS 220s from Tooley or TFS 215s would be my choice. Even then, you aren't going to gain a whole heck of a lot.
Yep. Put it together, document it, and let us know. I'm sure a ground swell will ensue.
09-30-2013, 07:38 AM
#33
It's going to be a while (few months maybe) before I get this going. I've got to source the intake/rails/injectors first. Get the associated pigtails for injectors... Then I'll call Ed and pull the trigger.
Very well may pull the short block and up the cubes before then. I replaced the O2 sensors last week and they were soot black. Either the ARP thread sealant on the rocker arm bolts have **** the bed, or the rings are on their way out. A compression and leakdown test is in order when I get in off the rig.
In the meantime, anyone with experience with these heads, please feel free to chime in with any info.
Very well may pull the short block and up the cubes before then. I replaced the O2 sensors last week and they were soot black. Either the ARP thread sealant on the rocker arm bolts have **** the bed, or the rings are on their way out. A compression and leakdown test is in order when I get in off the rig.
In the meantime, anyone with experience with these heads, please feel free to chime in with any info.
09-30-2013, 08:15 AM
#35
On my small bore setup, I got my intake/rails/injectors for $350. I also paid BER to have the intake ported. They were one of the only companies to show an actual dyno gain.
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c6-t...s3-intake.html
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c6-t...s3-intake.html
09-30-2013, 08:23 AM
#36
If by surprising you mean, "wow look at all that money he spent to make the same power as a budget 5.3 head combo", then I agree.
Perhaps there is a VERY good reason why they aren't popular
The same money will get you TFS or AFR heads, and anyone would be a fool to pass those up over a ported LS3.
Perhaps there is a VERY good reason why they aren't popular
The same money will get you TFS or AFR heads, and anyone would be a fool to pass those up over a ported LS3.
You save a good chuck of change with the ls3 intake and injectors over having to buy a fast and bigger ls1 style injectors. If your car comes with an ls6 intake, then it's basically free and you are just out $1300 for the heads, $100 for the offset rockers/peds, and another $200 or so for whatever throttle body you decide to go with. Thats $1500-$1600 for 50-60 rwhp, which is exactly what I gained on only a 224/230 cam and not even headers (I run LS7 manifolds). I did put in a bigger stick, but that experiment failed as the car got slower, which is why I had Ed Curtis spec me my new cam.
The BSP setup is a great street/budget setup. I still say max effort cathedral N/A is better on a 347, but I haven't seen what these MASTS can do. They give you back quite a bit of compression, which is going to help a lot.
If no one tried anything, we wouldn't have the information out there that we do today.
09-30-2013, 10:48 AM
#38
Hell, there was a guy here that ran one over 5 years w/o issue. Why not? If it ***** the bed, I'll go ERL 454 with whatever topend Ed recommends.
10-05-2013, 10:07 PM
#39
New cam in, 219/231 .62x .62x 111+3, degreed in @ .5 btdc @ .050". Specs were 1.5 btdc, close enough, so I didn't install the hex adjust.
It pulls MUCH better than before. I is happy.
It pulls MUCH better than before. I is happy.
Last edited by mchicia1; 10-05-2013 at 10:13 PM.
01-07-2014, 11:31 PM
#40
Figured I'd update this.
I gained 2 mph at the track with the new cam in the same conditions as before. Trapped 120.
Headers are going in, so I will see how much better they are than manifolds soon.
I gained 2 mph at the track with the new cam in the same conditions as before. Trapped 120.
Headers are going in, so I will see how much better they are than manifolds soon.