Undeerdrive pulley/balancers..feelings?
11-05-2013, 03:53 PM
#21
Your approach is penny wise and pound foolish assuming you're going to dump X, Y and Z on other real "power" mods. So why fight it? This is a worst case, but what's an engine cost? Pretty cheap insurance especially if you're going to throw mod's at it. For the majority, yes the others work fine and have. But if you know there's a better option to protect your investment for a small increase in price, why not?
11-05-2013, 04:27 PM
#22
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again im not going to argue that ATI is not the best. my point is does everybody need to spend $400 plus ? my el cheapo is SFI rated 18.1, spin tested to 12,500 rpm. im never going to rev my engine over 6300 so why do i have to have the best? thats like saying if i dont buy a top fuel dragster i shouldnt bother having fun with my car. i cant stand when people say IM RIGHT & everybody else is wrong.
11-05-2013, 05:21 PM
#23
It's not that. The difference between a $200 Powerbond and $400 ATI is about $200. Is your timing chain snapping and taking out your engine worth $200? That's all we're saying. Sometimes it's smart to spend a little more in certain places: rockers, pushrods, lifters, and balancers.
11-05-2013, 05:29 PM
#24
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i really think you guys are talking about drag only cars above 500 rwhp that must purchase an ATI. i cannot believe the average guy with 400 or less NEEDS the mercedes of all dampers. i have not heard of many people having trouble with their timing chain. i have the ls2 chain recommended by texas speed. please wont any sponsors chime in & settle this? is it ATI or nothing?
11-05-2013, 06:14 PM
#25
It's not a new phenomenon. The timing chain issues with the ASP pulley are very well documented here and at Corvette Forum. And it has nothing to do with HP or even max RPM. SFI rating has nothing to do with it.
It has to do with harmonics of an LS1 in the 4300-4700 RPM range. Typical of road racers or anyone driving on backroads. If you never spend any time in the 4000 RPM range, you'll be fine.
I'd recommend keeping stock or going with a Powerbond or Fluidamper over an ASP any day of the week. ATI over all of those.
If I have a 4" Crank there's absolutely no way I'd ever run anything but the ATI.
It has to do with harmonics of an LS1 in the 4300-4700 RPM range. Typical of road racers or anyone driving on backroads. If you never spend any time in the 4000 RPM range, you'll be fine.
I'd recommend keeping stock or going with a Powerbond or Fluidamper over an ASP any day of the week. ATI over all of those.
If I have a 4" Crank there's absolutely no way I'd ever run anything but the ATI.
11-05-2013, 09:32 PM
#27
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Well I suppose I will have to do more research and look into the ATI's. Never run one before. I have always trusted my high end engines to Fluidampers and haven't had any trouble from them but I suppose I will have a look at the ATIs and see what they have to offer.
I do agree that almost anything is better than stock but there are some totally bogus parts out there and the field of dampeners is no exception.
I'll admit to being a long way behind the power curve on LS tech. Working diesels for a living tends to get me burned out on tech research pretty fast and the emissions crap the last 5 years has kept me busy trying to keep up professionally. I was totally unaware there was a timing chain problem inherent in the design. Thanks for the heads up. I'll be bugging you guys more on other issues to so keep your thinking caps handy.
I do agree that almost anything is better than stock but there are some totally bogus parts out there and the field of dampeners is no exception.
I'll admit to being a long way behind the power curve on LS tech. Working diesels for a living tends to get me burned out on tech research pretty fast and the emissions crap the last 5 years has kept me busy trying to keep up professionally. I was totally unaware there was a timing chain problem inherent in the design. Thanks for the heads up. I'll be bugging you guys more on other issues to so keep your thinking caps handy.
11-06-2013, 01:22 PM
#28
My name is Ivan and I work for Fluidampr. I will try to help as best as I can.
There is a huge difference between ATI/Fluidampr and the rest of the dampers on the market. I travel the country performing TVA (torsional vibration analysis) testing with top engine builders as well as contribute to many industry magazines regarding torsional vibration (harmonics) and damper solutions. I have tested many different OEM, aftermarket elastomer, ATI and Fluidampr.
There is not even a close comparison. ATI and Fluidampr are so far ahead of every other damper it is not even close.
Quick education for those interested... Every time the engine fires it twists the crankshaft ahead of its natural rotation and then the crank rebounds back to its natural position. This crankshaft twist and rebound is what creates and sends vibrations down the crankshaft to critical engine components and can cause serious component wear and loss of power. The crankshaft twist is measured in degrees peak to peak. The greater the twist the worse the vibrations. These vibrations are measured in orders and occur at different rpm's based on a particular engine set-up.
It is important to know that OEM's develop dampers for the engine the way they are designed at the factory. Rubber dampers are tuned for a specific frequency of harmonics where the OEM engineers know the worst harmonics occur. Again, every engine is different. What happens is when you make upgrades or performance modifications you can shift where these worse harmonics occur. This causes the rubber damper to be overworked and the damper will wear quicker. A dampers job is to absorb the crankshaft twist and turn that energy into heat dissipating it through the damper housing. When the frequency range is outside of what the rubber is tuned for it causes excessive heat leading to early failure.
Of course I am biased but I truly believe this is why Fluidampr has the advantage. There is no rubber to wear out. It is a one piece design that will last the life of the engine... guaranteed. That is as long as it does not lose its press fit from repeated removal and install.
Back to my point, in all of the testing we have performed ATI and Fluidampr are able to do the best job reducing the peak to peak twist which puts much less wear on critical components and leads to more H.P. and Torque.
Although I did not read much mention of it here, the other myth that needs to be put to rest is that of lighter is better. When it comes to dampers you need the correct amount of inertia mass to absorb the vibrations. Typically, a heavier damper will do a better job than a lighter damper. The worse thing you can do is use a lightweight pulley. The OEM engineers know what they are doing. It would be much cheaper to just put a mass produced aluminum or steel pulley on the crank. They use dampers because they are able to absorb vibrations. A lightweight pulley does almost nothing to control vibrations that rob the engine of power.
You may be able to get away with an OEM or cheaper aftermarket damper for a period of time. But in reality there is a reason ATI and Fluidampr are so much more. They are quality made in the USA products that do what they claim. I am telling you this because I have seen the test results first hand. Other dampers will spin the belt and accessories but they do not do as good of a job controlling torsional vibrations.
I hope some of this helps from an educational standpoint. Feel free to ask any questions and I will do my best to answer.
There is a huge difference between ATI/Fluidampr and the rest of the dampers on the market. I travel the country performing TVA (torsional vibration analysis) testing with top engine builders as well as contribute to many industry magazines regarding torsional vibration (harmonics) and damper solutions. I have tested many different OEM, aftermarket elastomer, ATI and Fluidampr.
There is not even a close comparison. ATI and Fluidampr are so far ahead of every other damper it is not even close.
Quick education for those interested... Every time the engine fires it twists the crankshaft ahead of its natural rotation and then the crank rebounds back to its natural position. This crankshaft twist and rebound is what creates and sends vibrations down the crankshaft to critical engine components and can cause serious component wear and loss of power. The crankshaft twist is measured in degrees peak to peak. The greater the twist the worse the vibrations. These vibrations are measured in orders and occur at different rpm's based on a particular engine set-up.
It is important to know that OEM's develop dampers for the engine the way they are designed at the factory. Rubber dampers are tuned for a specific frequency of harmonics where the OEM engineers know the worst harmonics occur. Again, every engine is different. What happens is when you make upgrades or performance modifications you can shift where these worse harmonics occur. This causes the rubber damper to be overworked and the damper will wear quicker. A dampers job is to absorb the crankshaft twist and turn that energy into heat dissipating it through the damper housing. When the frequency range is outside of what the rubber is tuned for it causes excessive heat leading to early failure.
Of course I am biased but I truly believe this is why Fluidampr has the advantage. There is no rubber to wear out. It is a one piece design that will last the life of the engine... guaranteed. That is as long as it does not lose its press fit from repeated removal and install.
Back to my point, in all of the testing we have performed ATI and Fluidampr are able to do the best job reducing the peak to peak twist which puts much less wear on critical components and leads to more H.P. and Torque.
Although I did not read much mention of it here, the other myth that needs to be put to rest is that of lighter is better. When it comes to dampers you need the correct amount of inertia mass to absorb the vibrations. Typically, a heavier damper will do a better job than a lighter damper. The worse thing you can do is use a lightweight pulley. The OEM engineers know what they are doing. It would be much cheaper to just put a mass produced aluminum or steel pulley on the crank. They use dampers because they are able to absorb vibrations. A lightweight pulley does almost nothing to control vibrations that rob the engine of power.
You may be able to get away with an OEM or cheaper aftermarket damper for a period of time. But in reality there is a reason ATI and Fluidampr are so much more. They are quality made in the USA products that do what they claim. I am telling you this because I have seen the test results first hand. Other dampers will spin the belt and accessories but they do not do as good of a job controlling torsional vibrations.
I hope some of this helps from an educational standpoint. Feel free to ask any questions and I will do my best to answer.
Last edited by inc4203; 11-07-2013 at 06:26 AM.
11-06-2013, 07:06 PM
#30
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Yes truthfully as soon as you mentioned where you worked I assumed you wouldn't mention ATI again. Always nice to see a professional who admits that there is at least SOME competition. Thanks for the tech. Sadly that's what works best for me most of the time.
I am interested to know. ATI uses elastomer don't they? Isn't Fluidamper the only company using a fluidic solution for dampening?
I am interested to know. ATI uses elastomer don't they? Isn't Fluidamper the only company using a fluidic solution for dampening?
11-06-2013, 07:53 PM
#31
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my summit 25% ud pulley has a elastomer (im guessing rubber) & is slightly heavier than stock. (i hand weighed) i installed last summer to add a few ponies. is mine junk? it was sfi approved & spin tested to 12.5k rpm? thx
11-07-2013, 06:49 AM
#33
Yes ATI is an elastomeric type. But they use a different type of elastomer. They use o-ring style vs a bonded style found with most OEM and cheap aftermarket units. Fluidampr and their sister company Vibratech TVD (for heavy duty) invented this technology for heavy duty engines in 1946 and are the only made in the U.S.A. viscous type damper. Once our patent ran out a few heavy duty OEM's took the technology over seas 
Now there are cheap versions of both the heavy duty and performance Fluidampr. Unfortunately, for us this is where some of the bad rap I constantly face may come from. The cheap versions are NOT made the same.
Dano... I am not going to say it is junk. Depending on your set-up it may last years, I have not done a life study on that particular damper type. But what I do know is that it is not going to do the job of a Fluidampr or an ATI. It is also important to know that the SFI certification is for safety only. In order to be SFI certified the damper must be test spun between 12,500-13,500 for a period of no less than one hour. The SFI testing has nothing to do with the performance of the damper. It is just to prove it will not grenade under the above mentioned conditions.
Now there are cheap versions of both the heavy duty and performance Fluidampr. Unfortunately, for us this is where some of the bad rap I constantly face may come from. The cheap versions are NOT made the same.Dano... I am not going to say it is junk. Depending on your set-up it may last years, I have not done a life study on that particular damper type. But what I do know is that it is not going to do the job of a Fluidampr or an ATI. It is also important to know that the SFI certification is for safety only. In order to be SFI certified the damper must be test spun between 12,500-13,500 for a period of no less than one hour. The SFI testing has nothing to do with the performance of the damper. It is just to prove it will not grenade under the above mentioned conditions.
Last edited by inc4203; 11-07-2013 at 07:02 AM.
11-07-2013, 08:17 AM
#34
Like mentioned by Thunderstruck your going to be hard pressed to prove the ATI is worth the double + price tag. Many people have run SLP/Powerbond pulley for 100k+ miles with no issues. I understand the concept and the theories and the ATI is the best when it comes to certain applications. By all means if I was building a 700hp+ monster meant to be raced, ATI is the way to go. But for a street car? Especially on a stock short block. Hard to justify the ATI prices when Power bond gets the job done.
11-07-2013, 08:45 AM
#35
Like mentioned by Thunderstruck your going to be hard pressed to prove the ATI is worth the double + price tag. Many people have run SLP/Powerbond pulley for 100k+ miles with no issues. I understand the concept and the theories and the ATI is the best when it comes to certain applications. By all means if I was building a 700hp+ monster meant to be raced, ATI is the way to go. But for a street car? Especially on a stock short block. Hard to justify the ATI prices when Power bond gets the job done.
11-07-2013, 11:19 AM
#36
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Got my ATI a lot cheaper on E-Bay as ATI quite often have what they call BLEMISHED dampers for sale.
All it usually is, is a bit of paint is not as it should be. I really couldn't see bugger all wrong with mine.
Just keep checking E-Bay, you may be surprised at how many come up for sale.
All it usually is, is a bit of paint is not as it should be. I really couldn't see bugger all wrong with mine.
Just keep checking E-Bay, you may be surprised at how many come up for sale.
11-07-2013, 05:54 PM
#37
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So inc4203 I am looking at the Fluidamper 720102. Do you know if there is tech support information on what changes I need to make in belt length since this is listed as a 10% underdrive pulley. Also it looks like the AC belt channel may be unchanged, is this correct or am I drunk?
PS feel free to tell me to bugger off and try calling or emailing tech support directly. Oh yeah..what is their number/email?
To all the ATI guys TY for the input but I have had excellent luck out of Fluidamper in the past and I'm a borderline OCD paranoid. You're all out to make me do it wrong, nothing personal I just know you can't be trusted.
PS feel free to tell me to bugger off and try calling or emailing tech support directly. Oh yeah..what is their number/email?
To all the ATI guys TY for the input but I have had excellent luck out of Fluidamper in the past and I'm a borderline OCD paranoid. You're all out to make me do it wrong, nothing personal I just know you can't be trusted.
11-07-2013, 08:54 PM
#38
I will agree with you and is hard to justify like my QuickTime bellhousing 500 bucks I wish I could have spent somewhere else lol, I am a street strip guy mostly strip. The amount of money I spent is alot to me and just want to protect what I spend as much as possible. **** happens for sure but I got the ATI 100 bucks more then a powerbond so spent the extra money and it's a no ac pulley like I wanted. It's just a preference.
11-07-2013, 09:25 PM
#39
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INC4203, thank you for taking the time to add quality input into this subject. for our ref , what are the part #s for ls1 camaro / trans ams , also vettes & 5th gen camaros. you deserve a plug. feel free to add where we can purchase your quality product. cheers!
11-07-2013, 11:43 PM
#40
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So inc4203 I am looking at the Fluidamper 720102. Do you know if there is tech support information on what changes I need to make in belt length since this is listed as a 10% underdrive pulley. Also it looks like the AC belt channel may be unchanged, is this correct or am I drunk?
PS feel free to tell me to bugger off and try calling or emailing tech support directly. Oh yeah..what is their number/email?
To all the ATI guys TY for the input but I have had excellent luck out of Fluidamper in the past and I'm a borderline OCD paranoid. You're all out to make me do it wrong, nothing personal I just know you can't be trusted.
PS feel free to tell me to bugger off and try calling or emailing tech support directly. Oh yeah..what is their number/email?
To all the ATI guys TY for the input but I have had excellent luck out of Fluidamper in the past and I'm a borderline OCD paranoid. You're all out to make me do it wrong, nothing personal I just know you can't be trusted.
ATI all the way for the win! You should dream about it seeing the ATI spinning over the top of the Fluid damper as it sinks in water.
it sunk!!!!