Undeerdrive pulley/balancers..feelings?
11-08-2013, 12:59 PM
#41
cmbtengnr...
You can contact me personally, I will be glad to answer all of your tech. questions.
Contact info:
My contact info:
Ivan Snyder
716-995-6232
ivan.snyder@fluidampr.com
Fluidampr contact info:
Tech Support / Sales - 716-592-1000
Website: www.fluidampr.com
Dano...
Thank you!
But I encourage those interested to visit www.fluidampr.com and download our catalog or email me direct and I will send an e-catalog. We have multiple choices for each engine application- LS1/LS2/LS6 Camaro, GTO, Firebid - LS1/LS2/LS6 Corvette, CTSV - LS3/L99 Camaro which also uses the same damper as LS1Trucks
Fluidampr is an LS1 Tech supporting vendor and I could have come at this from a sales standpoint with no worries. But I really enjoy educating on torsional vibrations and dampers and do not want to be that pest of a salesman. I am truly here to educate not sell. So again, please feel free to ask questions.
.
You can contact me personally, I will be glad to answer all of your tech. questions.
Contact info:
My contact info:
Ivan Snyder
716-995-6232
ivan.snyder@fluidampr.com
Fluidampr contact info:
Tech Support / Sales - 716-592-1000
Website: www.fluidampr.com
Dano...
Thank you!
But I encourage those interested to visit www.fluidampr.com and download our catalog or email me direct and I will send an e-catalog. We have multiple choices for each engine application- LS1/LS2/LS6 Camaro, GTO, Firebid - LS1/LS2/LS6 Corvette, CTSV - LS3/L99 Camaro which also uses the same damper as LS1Trucks
Fluidampr is an LS1 Tech supporting vendor and I could have come at this from a sales standpoint with no worries. But I really enjoy educating on torsional vibrations and dampers and do not want to be that pest of a salesman. I am truly here to educate not sell. So again, please feel free to ask questions.
.
Last edited by inc4203; 11-08-2013 at 01:58 PM.
11-08-2013, 09:56 PM
#42
My name is Ivan and I work for Fluidampr. I will try to help as best as I can.
There is a huge difference between ATI/Fluidampr and the rest of the dampers on the market. I travel the country performing TVA (torsional vibration analysis) testing with top engine builders as well as contribute to many industry magazines regarding torsional vibration (harmonics) and damper solutions. I have tested many different OEM, aftermarket elastomer, ATI and Fluidampr.
There is not even a close comparison. ATI and Fluidampr are so far ahead of every other damper it is not even close.
Quick education for those interested... Every time the engine fires it twists the crankshaft ahead of its natural rotation and then the crank rebounds back to its natural position. This crankshaft twist and rebound is what creates and sends vibrations down the crankshaft to critical engine components and can cause serious component wear and loss of power. The crankshaft twist is measured in degrees peak to peak. The greater the twist the worse the vibrations. These vibrations are measured in orders and occur at different rpm's based on a particular engine set-up.
It is important to know that OEM's develop dampers for the engine the way they are designed at the factory. Rubber dampers are tuned for a specific frequency of harmonics where the OEM engineers know the worst harmonics occur. Again, every engine is different. What happens is when you make upgrades or performance modifications you can shift where these worse harmonics occur. This causes the rubber damper to be overworked and the damper will wear quicker. A dampers job is to absorb the crankshaft twist and turn that energy into heat dissipating it through the damper housing. When the frequency range is outside of what the rubber is tuned for it causes excessive heat leading to early failure.
Of course I am biased but I truly believe this is why Fluidampr has the advantage. There is no rubber to wear out. It is a one piece design that will last the life of the engine... guaranteed. That is as long as it does not lose its press fit from repeated removal and install.
Back to my point, in all of the testing we have performed ATI and Fluidampr are able to do the best job reducing the peak to peak twist which puts much less wear on critical components and leads to more H.P. and Torque.
Although I did not read much mention of it here, the other myth that needs to be put to rest is that of lighter is better. When it comes to dampers you need the correct amount of inertia mass to absorb the vibrations. Typically, a heavier damper will do a better job than a lighter damper. The worse thing you can do is use a lightweight pulley. The OEM engineers know what they are doing. It would be much cheaper to just put a mass produced aluminum or steel pulley on the crank. They use dampers because they are able to absorb vibrations. A lightweight pulley does almost nothing to control vibrations that rob the engine of power.
You may be able to get away with an OEM or cheaper aftermarket damper for a period of time. But in reality there is a reason ATI and Fluidampr are so much more. They are quality made in the USA products that do what they claim. I am telling you this because I have seen the test results first hand. Other dampers will spin the belt and accessories but they do not do as good of a job controlling torsional vibrations.
I hope some of this helps from an educational standpoint. Feel free to ask any questions and I will do my best to answer.
There is a huge difference between ATI/Fluidampr and the rest of the dampers on the market. I travel the country performing TVA (torsional vibration analysis) testing with top engine builders as well as contribute to many industry magazines regarding torsional vibration (harmonics) and damper solutions. I have tested many different OEM, aftermarket elastomer, ATI and Fluidampr.
There is not even a close comparison. ATI and Fluidampr are so far ahead of every other damper it is not even close.
Quick education for those interested... Every time the engine fires it twists the crankshaft ahead of its natural rotation and then the crank rebounds back to its natural position. This crankshaft twist and rebound is what creates and sends vibrations down the crankshaft to critical engine components and can cause serious component wear and loss of power. The crankshaft twist is measured in degrees peak to peak. The greater the twist the worse the vibrations. These vibrations are measured in orders and occur at different rpm's based on a particular engine set-up.
It is important to know that OEM's develop dampers for the engine the way they are designed at the factory. Rubber dampers are tuned for a specific frequency of harmonics where the OEM engineers know the worst harmonics occur. Again, every engine is different. What happens is when you make upgrades or performance modifications you can shift where these worse harmonics occur. This causes the rubber damper to be overworked and the damper will wear quicker. A dampers job is to absorb the crankshaft twist and turn that energy into heat dissipating it through the damper housing. When the frequency range is outside of what the rubber is tuned for it causes excessive heat leading to early failure.
Of course I am biased but I truly believe this is why Fluidampr has the advantage. There is no rubber to wear out. It is a one piece design that will last the life of the engine... guaranteed. That is as long as it does not lose its press fit from repeated removal and install.
Back to my point, in all of the testing we have performed ATI and Fluidampr are able to do the best job reducing the peak to peak twist which puts much less wear on critical components and leads to more H.P. and Torque.
Although I did not read much mention of it here, the other myth that needs to be put to rest is that of lighter is better. When it comes to dampers you need the correct amount of inertia mass to absorb the vibrations. Typically, a heavier damper will do a better job than a lighter damper. The worse thing you can do is use a lightweight pulley. The OEM engineers know what they are doing. It would be much cheaper to just put a mass produced aluminum or steel pulley on the crank. They use dampers because they are able to absorb vibrations. A lightweight pulley does almost nothing to control vibrations that rob the engine of power.
You may be able to get away with an OEM or cheaper aftermarket damper for a period of time. But in reality there is a reason ATI and Fluidampr are so much more. They are quality made in the USA products that do what they claim. I am telling you this because I have seen the test results first hand. Other dampers will spin the belt and accessories but they do not do as good of a job controlling torsional vibrations.
I hope some of this helps from an educational standpoint. Feel free to ask any questions and I will do my best to answer.
11-08-2013, 11:53 PM
#43
TECH Fanatic
Guess you're a die hard 25% under drive guy....Best bet is for you to stay there & let others who read the whole thread & actually want their car to run better with a 'proper damper' be it Fluid or ATI discuss whats better.
11-09-2013, 08:20 AM
#44
In my eyes the under driven pulley should be left for sbf 5.0 guys...there is a reason gm made it the size they did, not worth the charging issues for minimal gains but to each their own..If I were buying an aftermarket balancer I would def being getting an ATI, every race motor I've seen used it exclusively
11-09-2013, 10:54 AM
#45
I don't have any of the charging issues. I'm getting 14V on the gauge at idle.
11-09-2013, 11:08 AM
#46
I'll have to go dig up the issues CF folks had with snapping their timing chains with ASP 25% pulleys. That should be enough of a deterrent for anyone.
Here is one (and this is recent, this has been an issue since 2007 or so that I recall): http://forums.corvetteforum.com/auto...ster-link.html
Here is one (and this is recent, this has been an issue since 2007 or so that I recall): http://forums.corvetteforum.com/auto...ster-link.html
11-09-2013, 11:30 AM
#47
The fluidampr 720102 leaves the AC pulley diameter the stock size, and reduces only the accessory portion. For what it's worth, I got mine on Craigslist for 120 delivered. The guy I got it from failed to mention a DEEP groove in the snout area where it sealed on the timing chain cover. So, I simply got a speedi-sleeve of the appropriate size to bridge the groove, filled the grove with jb weld, tapped the sleeve into place and ran it.
Not one problem. The engine feels way smoother. Revs go up and down more quickly. I really like the improvements. The lesson? If you are patient, you can probably find one of the "ultimate" balancers for a lower price. I looked for 6 months and spent 175 by the time I was done.
Now, stepping over to my other car, the grand prix had a bad balancer when I bought it used a couple months ago. The dealer has one of those 1 month/1000 mile full warranties, which I made them honor. They tried to tell me all stock balancers wobbled badly. Problem is, my old car (G8 GT) was parked in the garage bay right next to the GP GXP and I could point out their obvious mistruth. They replaced the pulley with a new ($956, including labor), and that one did indeed wobble, though not nearly as bad - @1mm runout, compared to @3 or 4mm). So yes, the mass-produced stock one have serious limitations and quality control issues.
Were I to do the search over again, I'd still want one of the high end dampers. ATI or Fluidampr or something of similar build quality. I'm a cheapskate tho... So it would take me a while to find the right screamin deal.
Not one problem. The engine feels way smoother. Revs go up and down more quickly. I really like the improvements. The lesson? If you are patient, you can probably find one of the "ultimate" balancers for a lower price. I looked for 6 months and spent 175 by the time I was done.
Now, stepping over to my other car, the grand prix had a bad balancer when I bought it used a couple months ago. The dealer has one of those 1 month/1000 mile full warranties, which I made them honor. They tried to tell me all stock balancers wobbled badly. Problem is, my old car (G8 GT) was parked in the garage bay right next to the GP GXP and I could point out their obvious mistruth. They replaced the pulley with a new ($956, including labor), and that one did indeed wobble, though not nearly as bad - @1mm runout, compared to @3 or 4mm). So yes, the mass-produced stock one have serious limitations and quality control issues.
Were I to do the search over again, I'd still want one of the high end dampers. ATI or Fluidampr or something of similar build quality. I'm a cheapskate tho... So it would take me a while to find the right screamin deal.
11-09-2013, 11:44 AM
#48
I have PB pulley and been using for quite a while, 5-6 yrs. I have driven my car on track days so far my motor is still holding together, heads and cam set up. I spin the motor to 6500-6800 rpm, negative gs on turns.
I have read about ati pulley and honestly I would have bought one if my budget allowed me but for now my "cheaper" pulley works so it will stay. Does that mean my motor will hold forever or destroy itself because of the PB pulley? I don't know, certainly time will tell. A monkey might fly out of my butt.
Oem design is it's only good for factory specs. Once you start modding the motor it's a crap shoot. Ati and their biased consumers think it's the best, let 'em. My bottom line, my PB works and stay away from ASP like plague.
I have read about ati pulley and honestly I would have bought one if my budget allowed me but for now my "cheaper" pulley works so it will stay. Does that mean my motor will hold forever or destroy itself because of the PB pulley? I don't know, certainly time will tell. A monkey might fly out of my butt.
Oem design is it's only good for factory specs. Once you start modding the motor it's a crap shoot. Ati and their biased consumers think it's the best, let 'em. My bottom line, my PB works and stay away from ASP like plague.
11-09-2013, 01:07 PM
#49
TECH Fanatic
That's what I'm asking. Show me that the SLP/PB pulley is so inferior. I Honestly looked at the ATIs before I bought the UDP, but couldn't find anything but "beliefs" that they saved engine life, created more HP, etc. I went with the SLP/PB is because SOO many folks run them with success and no issues. I know I gained power and decreased my ET by using one and it was $200+ cheaper than the ATI. People have been running the 25% pulleys for over a decade, that says something.
I don't have any of the charging issues. I'm getting 14V on the gauge at idle.
I don't have any of the charging issues. I'm getting 14V on the gauge at idle.
I have also broken a dual Rollmaster road racing in our club sprints due to bad harmonics.
Dual chains: you can stick them as well.....I have now gone Cloyes Hex a Just gears & Cloyes extreme duty C5R chain & LS2 damper.
If you are unconcerned about how rough the harmonics in your engine are stick with the cheaper balancers.
Old adage: You can lead a horse to water!
11-09-2013, 02:49 PM
#50
If you have heard of Kurt Urban, I believe he was instrumental in the design with ATI of the Super damper due to the Vettes breaking chains road racing.
I have also broken a dual Rollmaster road racing in our club sprints due to bad harmonics.
Dual chains: you can stick them as well.....I have now gone Cloyes Hex a Just gears & Cloyes extreme duty C5R chain & LS2 damper.
If you are unconcerned about how rough the harmonics in your engine are stick with the cheaper balancers.
Old adage: You can lead a horse to water!
I have also broken a dual Rollmaster road racing in our club sprints due to bad harmonics.
Dual chains: you can stick them as well.....I have now gone Cloyes Hex a Just gears & Cloyes extreme duty C5R chain & LS2 damper.
If you are unconcerned about how rough the harmonics in your engine are stick with the cheaper balancers.
Old adage: You can lead a horse to water!
I never did say the ATI was a bad balancer...I'm stating what do you have to show the SLP/PB pulleys is so inferior? You keep bringing up Corvette failures...But LS engine are in F-body/GTO/G8/trucks and there are a hell of lot more of them out there than Corvettes. Where are all the other failures?
11-09-2013, 03:13 PM
#51
I had an ASP issue on my old 01 NBM Z/28 and think most of the failures are probably with their pulleys....Installed brand ASP, caused random misfires at WOT due to bad harmonics, engine did not feel smooth either...bought another bolt and put the stocker back on, problem gone... I cannot speak to SLP/Powerbond, but I will only use ATI from here on out...spinning both of my cars close to 7K
11-09-2013, 09:17 PM
#52
TECH Fanatic
I never did say the ATI was a bad balancer...I'm stating what do you have to show the SLP/PB pulleys is so inferior? You keep bringing up Corvette failures...But LS engine are in F-body/GTO/G8/trucks and there are a hell of lot more of them out there than Corvettes. Where are all the other failures?
On the street & drags will no doubt show no issues, road racing shows up the lack of quality of the cheaper brands.
For those of us that understand & don't want the bad harmonics caused by the cheap dampers, then we buy quality.
11-10-2013, 01:59 AM
#53
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If the guy earlier in the thread 'inc4203' that worked with the Fluid Dampers & new about the ATI dampers didn't give enough information for you to understand the difference, nothing will.
On the street & drags will no doubt show no issues, road racing shows up the lack of quality of the cheaper brands.
For those of us that understand & don't want the bad harmonics caused by the cheap dampers, then we buy quality.
On the street & drags will no doubt show no issues, road racing shows up the lack of quality of the cheaper brands.
For those of us that understand & don't want the bad harmonics caused by the cheap dampers, then we buy quality.
11-10-2013, 10:59 AM
#54
TECH Fanatic
What I said was exactly what I said
Unless you use either the ATI or fluidamper you are at risk of bad harmonics
11-10-2013, 11:46 AM
#55
Pulley Questions I was thinking about purchasing a new balancer as well. Here are my thought but I am no expert.
I have spent roughly $ 2800.00 on a new rotating assembly.
about the same on a new set of heads, not counting all of the rest of the items. Is a couple more hundred dollars not worth the extra piece of mind?
Heck it is for me, I'm no pro at all of this but I darn sure don't want a couple of hundred bucks to cost me ten times that in the long run if and when it does fail.
I would bet that there have been failures with all companies mentioned in the thread, howver I have not heard many of the upper end failing. I've made up my mind where the extra money is going, I like piece of mind myself!!!
I have spent roughly $ 2800.00 on a new rotating assembly.
about the same on a new set of heads, not counting all of the rest of the items. Is a couple more hundred dollars not worth the extra piece of mind?
Heck it is for me, I'm no pro at all of this but I darn sure don't want a couple of hundred bucks to cost me ten times that in the long run if and when it does fail.
I would bet that there have been failures with all companies mentioned in the thread, howver I have not heard many of the upper end failing. I've made up my mind where the extra money is going, I like piece of mind myself!!!
11-10-2013, 01:46 PM
#56
I was thinking about purchasing a new balancer as well. Here are my thought but I am no expert.
I have spent roughly $ 2800.00 on a new rotating assembly.
about the same on a new set of heads, not counting all of the rest of the items. Is a couple more hundred dollars not worth the extra piece of mind?
Heck it is for me, I'm no pro at all of this but I darn sure don't want a couple of hundred bucks to cost me ten times that in the long run if and when it does fail.
I would bet that there have been failures with all companies mentioned in the thread, howver I have not heard many of the upper end failing. I've made up my mind where the extra money is going, I like piece of mind myself!!!
I have spent roughly $ 2800.00 on a new rotating assembly.
about the same on a new set of heads, not counting all of the rest of the items. Is a couple more hundred dollars not worth the extra piece of mind?
Heck it is for me, I'm no pro at all of this but I darn sure don't want a couple of hundred bucks to cost me ten times that in the long run if and when it does fail.
I would bet that there have been failures with all companies mentioned in the thread, howver I have not heard many of the upper end failing. I've made up my mind where the extra money is going, I like piece of mind myself!!!
11-10-2013, 03:13 PM
#58
See my earlier post and link. Also, ask Katech. They see it more with road racing. Snapping C5R chains with ASP pulleys.
And it has nothing to do with spinning to high RPM. It has to do with the harmonics. It seems in the 4300-4800 RPM range is where the harmonics can be particularly bad on an LS engine.
And it has nothing to do with spinning to high RPM. It has to do with the harmonics. It seems in the 4300-4800 RPM range is where the harmonics can be particularly bad on an LS engine.
11-10-2013, 07:55 PM
#59
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wow and I thought some of the small block/big block arguments back in the day got gnarly.
I think the main thing is to upgrade to a good quality dampener whenever you do heavy mods because the stock and a majority of the cheap dampeners are only tuned for a specific set of parameters. Now as far as fluidamper versus ATI it's is pretty much blondes vs redheads sure the one is easier but the other is more fun, sure she might stab you in your sleep but hey everything is a risk.
As far as engine go nothing is going to last forever and spark ignition engines are lucky to last 500K. Check your budget and decide appropriately whether you want easy or stabbed in your sleep.
I think the main thing is to upgrade to a good quality dampener whenever you do heavy mods because the stock and a majority of the cheap dampeners are only tuned for a specific set of parameters. Now as far as fluidamper versus ATI it's is pretty much blondes vs redheads sure the one is easier but the other is more fun, sure she might stab you in your sleep but hey everything is a risk.
As far as engine go nothing is going to last forever and spark ignition engines are lucky to last 500K. Check your budget and decide appropriately whether you want easy or stabbed in your sleep.
11-10-2013, 11:36 PM
#60
wow and I thought some of the small block/big block arguments back in the day got gnarly.
I think the main thing is to upgrade to a good quality dampener whenever you do heavy mods because the stock and a majority of the cheap dampeners are only tuned for a specific set of parameters. Now as far as fluidamper versus ATI it's is pretty much blondes vs redheads sure the one is easier but the other is more fun, sure she might stab you in your sleep but hey everything is a risk.
As far as engine go nothing is going to last forever and spark ignition engines are lucky to last 500K. Check your budget and decide appropriately whether you want easy or stabbed in your sleep.
I think the main thing is to upgrade to a good quality dampener whenever you do heavy mods because the stock and a majority of the cheap dampeners are only tuned for a specific set of parameters. Now as far as fluidamper versus ATI it's is pretty much blondes vs redheads sure the one is easier but the other is more fun, sure she might stab you in your sleep but hey everything is a risk.
As far as engine go nothing is going to last forever and spark ignition engines are lucky to last 500K. Check your budget and decide appropriately whether you want easy or stabbed in your sleep.
Got a laugh out of me with that one.