Short duration, Tight LSA Cams
Joe,
Thanks for the response. Developing torque across the entire bandwith is more important than peak horsepower numbers where the engine will rarely spend any time for my application. I am very interested in the ASP-Kicker cam. Let me know what valve springs you recommend for this cam (I see some springs rated for 0.650" lift on your website). Also, have you experimented with any reverse split cam patterns?
Thanks,
Glen
Thanks for the response. Developing torque across the entire bandwith is more important than peak horsepower numbers where the engine will rarely spend any time for my application. I am very interested in the ASP-Kicker cam. Let me know what valve springs you recommend for this cam (I see some springs rated for 0.650" lift on your website). Also, have you experimented with any reverse split cam patterns?
Thanks,
Glen
Desktop Dyno is very inaccurate a lower engine speeds, especially for the LS1 IMO. Any cam 224 or under will increase torque over the stock cam starting at 2000 rpm. Even my XE-R 228 112 cam has more power at 2000 rpm than a stock one.
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Joined: Oct 2003
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From: Central, MA
I hear a few truck guys (mostly with 5.3's I believe) complain that cams like the Comp 216/220 will hurt lowend.
Is it due to the smaller sized motors, the extra 2000lbs of weight some trucks carry over the f-body's, or is it the relatively lazier lobes of the 216/220?
Is it due to the smaller sized motors, the extra 2000lbs of weight some trucks carry over the f-body's, or is it the relatively lazier lobes of the 216/220?
My buddy has used a 216/216 cam and now has the TR220 cam in his 5.3L and has experienced no low end torque loss. Who cares about power under 1800 as the motor is never running that slow anyway. I think its a perceived power loss since the motor makes so much more power up top. I've seen dyno graphs proving that there is NO torque loss from 2000+. Its hard to dyno any lower than that though to actually prove it.
Originally Posted by MyLS1Hauls
Who cares about power under 1800 as the motor is never running that slow anyway.
BTW, my DTD 2000 setup shows equal to stock torque @ 2000 for the 212-216 range cams and then less @ larger durations. I'm not saying that this stuff is accurate. It is just useful when comparing cam characteristics.
On The Tree
Joined: Sep 2002
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From: Lakewood, OH and Grand Marais, MI
Originally Posted by MyLS1Hauls
I've seen dyno graphs proving that there is NO torque loss from 2000+. Its hard to dyno any lower than that though to actually prove it.
To each his own I guess. Everybody has a different idea of what's streetable.
Originally Posted by PREDATOR-Z
No matter what other cam u get, you'll need a converter to go with it. Remember you're changing the parameters of a complete system (Motor), so the "other parameters will have to be adjusted (Tuning) and/or upgrades.
Keep reading around if you do not believe me. It is a general agreement that a TC swap is more beneficial than a cam swap (ET times) therefore performance and should be done first.
Keep reading around if you do not believe me. It is a general agreement that a TC swap is more beneficial than a cam swap (ET times) therefore performance and should be done first.
The decision I made was that I DON'T want to go faster than 12.0. I think I can get into the low 12s with a mild cam and headers. Both the mild cam and headers should improve driveability. Maintaining driveability is now one of the top goals.
If in my normal driving the TC locked up 25% of the time, I would still be on the fence on whether or not to go with a hi-stall TC. At 50% lockup I would be convinced that the TC is the way to go. At 75%, I would be a fool not to get a TC. I almost never lockup my TC. In fact the only time it gets locked up is when I head out to the track on the other side of the island.
So, that is why I am going to stick with the stock TC. But I do appreciate your words of wisdom as it does apply to most peoples desires and situations out there.
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Verdad Gallardo nuzee- I'm not sure how you drive even a stock stalled LS1 car from idle to only 1500, considering the stock stall is 1600!...if you do, you bought the wrong car. The cam is not the only thing affecting power off idle...its the higher flowing heads and also the intake manifold. I've used many different cams and have buddies who have used several also, from very small to very big, and none gave a monster increase nor decrease in torque under 1500 rpm. To get big torque down that low, you'll need a diesel 
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From: Central, MA
I'll get flamed for this, but if I drive "reserved" my truck will NEVER see more than 2,000 rpm my whole 25 mile backroad commute into work. (still on stock converter, Yank not installed) ...and that's including accelerating from a dead stop, up to 45mph, and still every so slightly out-pulling surrounding traffic.
Lockup in the truck takes place at 35mph. I have 4.10 gears, and 31" tires I believe. I regularily see 1,100rpm locked up on a nice flat road at about 35-36mph... If I choose to only lockup above 1,500rpm - I think I'll be looking at about 50, maybe 55 mph. Some of us may not want to sacrifice that (extreme?) lowend grunt.
Lockup in the truck takes place at 35mph. I have 4.10 gears, and 31" tires I believe. I regularily see 1,100rpm locked up on a nice flat road at about 35-36mph... If I choose to only lockup above 1,500rpm - I think I'll be looking at about 50, maybe 55 mph. Some of us may not want to sacrifice that (extreme?) lowend grunt.
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From: Kent WA
I don't know if you'd be able to get into the low 12s on a stock converter. If you want low 12s and keep daily driveability so it's just about like stock, the best way to do it is a mild stall converter, step up to some 3.42 gears, headers, and then add your mild cam (like a TR 220 or a B1). Easy low 12 car, while still easy on the streetability.
I have a friend on these boards who has an A4 with stock 3.23 gearing and stock converter, that's putting down 370rwhp (SAE corrected), with every bolt on known to man, including 1.8 ratio rockers... his best on QTP drag tires is a 12.8... and this guy can flat out drive that car, so I'd be impressed if anyone could go faster in it. If he adds a mild cam like the type you're talking about, he can probably get a 12.5. But without at least a mild converter he probably wouldn't get the low 12s.
I just don't see a 12.0-12.3 in your future without at least a mild stall converter, especially if you're sticking with a mild cam setup.
I have a friend on these boards who has an A4 with stock 3.23 gearing and stock converter, that's putting down 370rwhp (SAE corrected), with every bolt on known to man, including 1.8 ratio rockers... his best on QTP drag tires is a 12.8... and this guy can flat out drive that car, so I'd be impressed if anyone could go faster in it. If he adds a mild cam like the type you're talking about, he can probably get a 12.5. But without at least a mild converter he probably wouldn't get the low 12s.
I just don't see a 12.0-12.3 in your future without at least a mild stall converter, especially if you're sticking with a mild cam setup.
On The Tree
Joined: Sep 2002
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From: Lakewood, OH and Grand Marais, MI
Originally Posted by marc_w
Some of us may not want to sacrifice that (extreme?) lowend grunt.
I think the stock cam with its lack of advance, relatively low lift and wide LSA is a real dog off the line unless you change gears or converter. Just my $.02.
On The Tree
Joined: Sep 2002
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From: Lakewood, OH and Grand Marais, MI
Originally Posted by marc_w
SSLink - Under what RPM does your 218/218 112 start to buck and fart? What RPM does it start to pull nice and healthily?
My engine doesn't really buck at all over 1000 RPM in first or second gears once it's warmed up. That's really why I kept duration below 220. FYI I have my idle set at 800 RPM.
When does it start to pull "healthy?" That's pretty subjective. I cruise at 70 MPH and 1500 RPM in 6th gear on the highway with enough grunt to change lanes and casually pass. On the other hand if I am in a race from a roll I never let engine speed drop below 3000 RPM in any gear above 1st. That's where the real surge comes on. The overlap on a 112 LSA gives you a definite hump in the torque curve. You can really feel when you're on it.
In a heavier vehicle like a truck you may have to go a bit lower in effective duration to have the same results, even if you have a 6.0L. With an auto tranny it might also be preferable to go with a 114 LSA to smooth out the idle a bit if you plan on keeping the stock idle speed.
Hope this helps - Jeff L.
Last edited by SSLink; May 14, 2004 at 03:58 PM.
Originally Posted by MyLS1Hauls
nuzee- I'm not sure how you drive even a stock stalled LS1 car from idle to only 1500, considering the stock stall is 1600!
...if you do, you bought the wrong car.!
Originally Posted by Tranzor_Z28
I don't know if you'd be able to get into the low 12s on a stock converter. If you want low 12s and keep daily driveability so it's just about like stock, the best way to do it is a mild stall converter, step up to some 3.42 gears, headers, and then add your mild cam (like a TR 220 or a B1). Easy low 12 car, while still easy on the streetability.
I have a friend on these boards who has an A4 with stock 3.23 gearing and stock converter, that's putting down 370rwhp (SAE corrected), with every bolt on known to man, including 1.8 ratio rockers... his best on QTP drag tires is a 12.8... and this guy can flat out drive that car, so I'd be impressed if anyone could go faster in it. If he adds a mild cam like the type you're talking about, he can probably get a 12.5. But without at least a mild converter he probably wouldn't get the low 12s.
I just don't see a 12.0-12.3 in your future without at least a mild stall converter, especially if you're sticking with a mild cam setup.
I have a friend on these boards who has an A4 with stock 3.23 gearing and stock converter, that's putting down 370rwhp (SAE corrected), with every bolt on known to man, including 1.8 ratio rockers... his best on QTP drag tires is a 12.8... and this guy can flat out drive that car, so I'd be impressed if anyone could go faster in it. If he adds a mild cam like the type you're talking about, he can probably get a 12.5. But without at least a mild converter he probably wouldn't get the low 12s.
I just don't see a 12.0-12.3 in your future without at least a mild stall converter, especially if you're sticking with a mild cam setup.
For me, even a mild stall could really hurt my gas mileage and take away from the snappy throttle response. So, if I were to go with a TC, I'd go relatively big and try to reap the best ET from the $$ & effort.
The Colonel once said that the stock TC stall is even too low for the stock cam. That got me thinking. Instead of trying to increase the stall speed of the TC, what about increasing the low-end powerband to help the stock TC out. It is very evident that I'll run into more limitations as far as trying to increase the low-end vs. just increasing stall speed. But, there isn't much of a driveability trade-off by trying to do so.
Anyway, I appreciate your opinion.
Originally Posted by MyLS1Hauls
nuzee- I'm not sure how you drive even a stock stalled LS1 car from idle to only 1500, considering the stock stall is 1600!...if you do, you bought the wrong car. The cam is not the only thing affecting power off idle...its the higher flowing heads and also the intake manifold. I've used many different cams and have buddies who have used several also, from very small to very big, and none gave a monster increase nor decrease in torque under 1500 rpm. To get big torque down that low, you'll need a diesel
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Joined: Mar 2004
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From: BFE
Originally Posted by Cal
TR224 114, you will be impressed with the off idle torque and blown away by the power from 3,000 rpm to 6800 rpm!
Yes the bottom end will take a few more rpms but that is done at the expense of locking the bottom one of these days.
Comp 216/220 is a good cam also (peak hp at 6300rpm)
A stock bottom end can safely go to 6800 rpm, but even if you wanted to stop at 6300, you would still be making far more power than with the 216/220, and reving quicker as well. You can also get the bigger cams with advance ground in to make them peak lower, or on a narrower LSA to peak lower. You're not really giving up anything to put a 224 in an LS1, and even a 230 gives up very little low end, just emissions status.