Dropped sleeve issues............
Originally Posted by Pro Stock John
If this motor bent all the exhaust valves the cam was potentially:
A. Not degreed right
B. Floated the valves
C. Broke a timing chain
D. Was overrevved
Was there a particular reply where someone looked at what would be going on for the exhaust valves to be bent and not the intake valves?
A. Not degreed right
B. Floated the valves
C. Broke a timing chain
D. Was overrevved
Was there a particular reply where someone looked at what would be going on for the exhaust valves to be bent and not the intake valves?
PSJ - the guys in this post (Doc, team tosto and all the boys from st louis) are top notch and have years of racing under their belts. this motor wasnt abused - heck it couldnt even get out of the garage. it wasnt from floating valves or over reving (unless idle is over reving to you). 
Originally Posted by 9secbird
Well its got to be A. because the motor never ran the second time. And that what were trying to explain!
If you retard the cam enough then the exhaust valve will hit.
So its obviuos that the cam was in so retarded that it hit the piston's and the intakes are fine, so we think
However, everyone is missing the point that when it was together the first time we had over .200 of clearance
Last edited by 9secbird; Jun 1, 2004 at 03:50 PM.
TECH Resident
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 855
Likes: 0
From: AUSTIN TX
I am not saying the cam and gear set was installed correctly, I have not seen the motor. You guys are saying it was installed correctly when you state that the dots line up correctly. I am also stating that if it is a multiple keyway crank gear that there are multiple marks for each keyway. One of them denotes which keyway to use, the other mark (which should be a duplicate of the first) is used to line up with the dot on the cam gear. As far as degreeing a camshaft, unless you have an adjustable cam gear (either machined and made adjustable, or something similar to a hex adjustable), all you can really do is check and verify that everything is where it is supposed to be. Even a multi keyway crank gear is not really designed for "degreeing" a cam as it only allows adjustments in 2 to 4 degrees advance or retard.
Fellas, the dots don't line up at all when its tdc when I say 4 teeth off thats what Im saying just to give you perspective on this if you would pull the cam gear off move piston to tdc then line dots up its fine. No it doesn't need to be degreed but he paid for it thats all. If they did what they said they would have caught this thats all I'm saying. When you line them up the piston is about 2 inches in the hole its not right and thats what bent the valves I wish everyone would read this post from begining to end and it would be at least 4 pages shorter.
Its very simple the cam ,gears, timing chain, how ever you want to put it its installed wrong I 've installed plenty of cams degreed not degreed you have to put the piston tdc before you line the dots up that was not done which in turn bent all the exhaust valves he's just lucky it didn't get the intakes .
As far as the dots on crank gear there is 2 dots I'm meaning the dot on the teeth and cam gear dot should line up the other dot is for the keyway we know that. I also know you can't get real acurate with his timing chain set becuase it has different slots on the crank gear its not like an old small block hex adjust where you can move the bushing to go from 104.5 to 105 I under stand all of that its just installed wrong.
Its very simple the cam ,gears, timing chain, how ever you want to put it its installed wrong I 've installed plenty of cams degreed not degreed you have to put the piston tdc before you line the dots up that was not done which in turn bent all the exhaust valves he's just lucky it didn't get the intakes .
As far as the dots on crank gear there is 2 dots I'm meaning the dot on the teeth and cam gear dot should line up the other dot is for the keyway we know that. I also know you can't get real acurate with his timing chain set becuase it has different slots on the crank gear its not like an old small block hex adjust where you can move the bushing to go from 104.5 to 105 I under stand all of that its just installed wrong.
Maybe doc can do that its really pretty simple I think everyone is trying to help in there own way and thats why he started the post for help so every ones input is very informative. I'm just trying to explain which is hard to do over the computer. Its a very simple fix we just need the heads fixed for Doc so he can get rolling.
Originally Posted by TOSTO RACING
Maybe doc can do that its really pretty simple I think everyone is trying to help in there own way and thats why he started the post for help so every ones input is very informative. I'm just trying to explain which is hard to do over the computer. Its a very simple fix we just need the heads fixed for Doc so he can get rolling.
Once the heads are repaired it'll be smooth sailing. He's using the Cometic headgaskets designed for the Darton MID setup, correct? He really should use those as per Steve @ Race Engineering's recommendation.
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Originally Posted by CANNIBAL
I agree.
Once the heads are repaired it'll be smooth sailing. He's using the Cometic headgaskets designed for the Darton MID setup, correct? He really should use those as per Steve @ Race Engineering's recommendation.
Once the heads are repaired it'll be smooth sailing. He's using the Cometic headgaskets designed for the Darton MID setup, correct? He really should use those as per Steve @ Race Engineering's recommendation.
Originally Posted by Ozz
Doc Pm me on this board or the MO board, I have some information you need to see.
For the record.
MTI did the same shotty work on my motor which includes undocumented machine work to cover for their poor work and they even used the same bearings in the new motor that were in the 2 previous dropped sleeve motors they sent me. Jayson sent me an email after I posted above and stated they Have a new COO coming in that saw the post I made. Jayson wanted to let me know that MTI wants us all to be satisfied... I listed my concerns and received nothing back in response. Doc myself and one other person ordered our 427s at the same time and ALL of them were junk I had 2 come in and drop a sleeve and the 3rd had a 1/16 gouge in a cyl wall. I gave up and orderd the C5R block from MTI to get this nightmare to an end. I was told they had milled on my pistons in an attempt to fix the first block, they also used the same bearings and rings from the first attempts where water had entered the oil due to dropped sleeves. When I was told that there was nothing I could do except wait for their new CNC equipment and for them to work out the Darton process of buy a C5R I took the bullet and went C5R. I was told by MTI that they decked the block (no specifications) and that they would do nothing about rings and bearings but they would be fine. I was just out the new LS6 block I bought and basiclly had to take what they offered period. I know what Doc Ron and Myself have been through and if MTI really wanted to make it right they would have done so by now.
Jayson and David if you really want to stand up and make it right I am sure ALL of us here want to see it!!! All we want is to trust that a shop will be there after the sale and will support their products the way we have supported the shop.
Matt
For the record.
MTI did the same shotty work on my motor which includes undocumented machine work to cover for their poor work and they even used the same bearings in the new motor that were in the 2 previous dropped sleeve motors they sent me. Jayson sent me an email after I posted above and stated they Have a new COO coming in that saw the post I made. Jayson wanted to let me know that MTI wants us all to be satisfied... I listed my concerns and received nothing back in response. Doc myself and one other person ordered our 427s at the same time and ALL of them were junk I had 2 come in and drop a sleeve and the 3rd had a 1/16 gouge in a cyl wall. I gave up and orderd the C5R block from MTI to get this nightmare to an end. I was told they had milled on my pistons in an attempt to fix the first block, they also used the same bearings and rings from the first attempts where water had entered the oil due to dropped sleeves. When I was told that there was nothing I could do except wait for their new CNC equipment and for them to work out the Darton process of buy a C5R I took the bullet and went C5R. I was told by MTI that they decked the block (no specifications) and that they would do nothing about rings and bearings but they would be fine. I was just out the new LS6 block I bought and basiclly had to take what they offered period. I know what Doc Ron and Myself have been through and if MTI really wanted to make it right they would have done so by now.
Jayson and David if you really want to stand up and make it right I am sure ALL of us here want to see it!!! All we want is to trust that a shop will be there after the sale and will support their products the way we have supported the shop.
Matt
PM me what you have.
as Matt mentioned, I'm the 3rd guy that bought a 427 and went through the same PITA as Matt and ended up buying the C5-R block. My MTI C5-R blocked 427 uses oil at the rate of 3 quarts of 0-30 (conventional) every 1000 miles. Had a leak down test that validated the oil was coming through the cylinders...the results were:
cylinder - leak down
1 - 9%
2 - 11%
3 - 16%
4 - 15%
5 - 15%
6 - 11%
7 - 13%
8 - 15%
MTI says Mark at RMS mis-tuned the engine there by washing out the rings. Mark says MTI mis-honed...AKA finger pointing. Basically, I've lost confidence in both shops and will be taking my car to WesTech to fix (Norm has 25 years of proven experience and has a great reputation).
I'm writing my nightmare off as a bad experience and changing shops.
and would never recommend either MTI or RMS.BTW, Mark at RMS if you read this…for the last time...take me off your web site as a customer or make right on your warranty
Brian, they have admitted fault...so don't talk past the sale...they have to make it right.
Good luck.
Ron
TECH Resident
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 855
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From: AUSTIN TX
Originally Posted by TOSTO RACING
Fellas, the dots don't line up at all when its tdc when I say 4 teeth off thats what Im saying just to give you perspective on this if you would pull the cam gear off move piston to tdc then line dots up its fine. No it doesn't need to be degreed but he paid for it thats all. If they did what they said they would have caught this thats all I'm saying. When you line them up the piston is about 2 inches in the hole its not right and thats what bent the valves I wish everyone would read this post from begining to end and it would be at least 4 pages shorter.
Its very simple the cam ,gears, timing chain, how ever you want to put it its installed wrong I 've installed plenty of cams degreed not degreed you have to put the piston tdc before you line the dots up that was not done which in turn bent all the exhaust valves he's just lucky it didn't get the intakes .
As far as the dots on crank gear there is 2 dots I'm meaning the dot on the teeth and cam gear dot should line up the other dot is for the keyway we know that. I also know you can't get real acurate with his timing chain set becuase it has different slots on the crank gear its not like an old small block hex adjust where you can move the bushing to go from 104.5 to 105 I under stand all of that its just installed wrong.
Its very simple the cam ,gears, timing chain, how ever you want to put it its installed wrong I 've installed plenty of cams degreed not degreed you have to put the piston tdc before you line the dots up that was not done which in turn bent all the exhaust valves he's just lucky it didn't get the intakes .
As far as the dots on crank gear there is 2 dots I'm meaning the dot on the teeth and cam gear dot should line up the other dot is for the keyway we know that. I also know you can't get real acurate with his timing chain set becuase it has different slots on the crank gear its not like an old small block hex adjust where you can move the bushing to go from 104.5 to 105 I under stand all of that its just installed wrong.
Originally Posted by Pro Stock John
Hugger, you are unhappy, will no longer use MTI and RMS, and will now use Westech?
You must be under the spell of Keith or Denz, I'll leave it at that.
You must be under the spell of Keith or Denz, I'll leave it at that.
after MTI screwed up the first two sleeved motors and either RMS and or MTI screwed up my high dollar C5-R blocked 427...what would you have me do...go for four in a row???Did you see those leak down numbers...
I would expect that from Bob's better BBQ and machine works but not MTI or RMS.I can tell you one thing I'm certainly not under the spell of those shops anymore.
...and I'll leave it at that, too.
