Help me with lobes!
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Joined: Feb 2007
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From: Boston, MA
Help me with lobes! I've been harrassing poor vendors left and right lately, pestering them with hundreds of questions regarding the next step of my 2001 SS. I'm looking to do heads/cam and supporting mods, but the entire Cam selection part is running me down.
I've essentially decided on TFS/TEA 215 heads. But the cam is in the air (I've considered vengeance's VRX 3 or 4, Lingenfelter GT1-1, TrickFlow's own stage 3 cam (which everybody says is too mild...), along with some of Tick's cams.
What's worrying me, though, is talk of lobe design and valvetrain wear.
I'm not building a race car. I want a usable, powerful, fun, driver's car. It'll be low mileage (weekend cruiser), so maybe aggressive lobes aren't an issue?
It seems many are based on comp's XER lobe profile, which some say aren't that bad, while others say watch out.
So, fellas, I was hoping to gain some info on what I should be looking for... So that i don't have to rebuild heads every 20kmiles, but still be able to get some more power out of my car.
I've essentially decided on TFS/TEA 215 heads. But the cam is in the air (I've considered vengeance's VRX 3 or 4, Lingenfelter GT1-1, TrickFlow's own stage 3 cam (which everybody says is too mild...), along with some of Tick's cams.
What's worrying me, though, is talk of lobe design and valvetrain wear.
I'm not building a race car. I want a usable, powerful, fun, driver's car. It'll be low mileage (weekend cruiser), so maybe aggressive lobes aren't an issue?
It seems many are based on comp's XER lobe profile, which some say aren't that bad, while others say watch out.
So, fellas, I was hoping to gain some info on what I should be looking for... So that i don't have to rebuild heads every 20kmiles, but still be able to get some more power out of my car.
It's a system of parts, so it depends on the rest of the valvetrain, such as rockers, valves, springs, etc., but also the RPM range, which sounds like relatively low since you say it's a street car.
Everyone is also going to have their own preference. Some will even say steer clear of Comp altogether and will recommend another cam grinder. There probably isn't going to be too many people more experienced in this sort of thing than some of the sponsors that sell, install, and dyno these cars day in and day out. I'd take a sponsor's advice into consideration over someone who has done maybe one or two heads/cam installs.
Everyone is also going to have their own preference. Some will even say steer clear of Comp altogether and will recommend another cam grinder. There probably isn't going to be too many people more experienced in this sort of thing than some of the sponsors that sell, install, and dyno these cars day in and day out. I'd take a sponsor's advice into consideration over someone who has done maybe one or two heads/cam installs.
When XER lobes came out the thought process focused on fast ramp rate to quickly accelerate the lifter over a short period of time. When the beehive springs of the time said "uncle" the aftermarket stepped up with dual valve springs that were able to keep the valves in the head. Then the 5/16" by .080" wall pushrods became the next over taxed valve train part to say "uncle". Now folks are running 11/32", 3/8", or even 7/16" push rods in order to engineer a stable valve train from idle to 7200 rpms using a hydraulic lifter. Speed Tigger is one of the few to now be using a low lash solid rolleras factory lifters and even some aftermarket short travel units are being pushed to the limits by aggressive cam lobes. Now; with the right pocket book and parts selection you can build an effective system but what you lose is 50 thousand mile longevity....most are happy to get 15-25 K as they often change combos fairly quickly looking for more power/different set up, etc.
EPS now has his lobe profiles ground by Cam Motion ( owned by Kip Fabre )
and they now advertise smooth lobes which are stable at rpm and make great power throughout the power band.
Martin at Tick and Brian Tooley both select Comp Cams lobes from different families to make hybrid/custom cams to work for an individual's specific requirements or wishes.
Your best bet is to study, read, ask questions, and study/read some more to educate yourself and then decide what direction you want to go for your car.
EPS now has his lobe profiles ground by Cam Motion ( owned by Kip Fabre )
and they now advertise smooth lobes which are stable at rpm and make great power throughout the power band.
Martin at Tick and Brian Tooley both select Comp Cams lobes from different families to make hybrid/custom cams to work for an individual's specific requirements or wishes.
Your best bet is to study, read, ask questions, and study/read some more to educate yourself and then decide what direction you want to go for your car.
Thread Starter
TECH Resident
Joined: Feb 2007
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From: Boston, MA
It's a system of parts, so it depends on the rest of the valvetrain, such as rockers, valves, springs, etc., but also the RPM range, which sounds like relatively low since you say it's a street car.
Everyone is also going to have their own preference. Some will even say steer clear of Comp altogether and will recommend another cam grinder. There probably isn't going to be too many people more experienced in this sort of thing than some of the sponsors that sell, install, and dyno these cars day in and day out. I'd take a sponsor's advice into consideration over someone who has done maybe one or two heads/cam installs.
Everyone is also going to have their own preference. Some will even say steer clear of Comp altogether and will recommend another cam grinder. There probably isn't going to be too many people more experienced in this sort of thing than some of the sponsors that sell, install, and dyno these cars day in and day out. I'd take a sponsor's advice into consideration over someone who has done maybe one or two heads/cam installs.
I do trust the sponsors to quite a degree, but it seems like every one has a different recipe and a different reason for doing it their way (roller rockers/factory rockers, this cam, that cam... These lifters those lifters), which is great, but at the end of the day it makes a guy like me confused as to where to pull the trigger.
When XER lobes came out the thought process focused on fast ramp rate to quickly accelerate the lifter over a short period of time. When the beehive springs of the time said "uncle" the aftermarket stepped up with dual valve springs that were able to keep the valves in the head. Then the 5/16" by .080" wall pushrods became the next over taxed valve train part to say "uncle". Now folks are running 11/32", 3/8", or even 7/16" push rods in order to engineer a stable valve train from idle to 7200 rpms using a hydraulic lifter. Speed Tigger is one of the few to now be using a low lash solid rolleras factory lifters and even some aftermarket short travel units are being pushed to the limits by aggressive cam lobes. Now; with the right pocket book and parts selection you can build an effective system but what you lose is 50 thousand mile longevity....most are happy to get 15-25 K as they often change combos fairly quickly looking for more power/different set up, etc.
EPS now has his lobe profiles ground by Cam Motion ( owned by Kip Fabre )
and they now advertise smooth lobes which are stable at rpm and make great power throughout the power band.
Martin at Tick and Brian Tooley both select Comp Cams lobes from different families to make hybrid/custom cams to work for an individual's specific requirements or wishes.
Your best bet is to study, read, ask questions, and study/read some more to educate yourself and then decide what direction you want to go for your car.
EPS now has his lobe profiles ground by Cam Motion ( owned by Kip Fabre )
and they now advertise smooth lobes which are stable at rpm and make great power throughout the power band.
Martin at Tick and Brian Tooley both select Comp Cams lobes from different families to make hybrid/custom cams to work for an individual's specific requirements or wishes.
Your best bet is to study, read, ask questions, and study/read some more to educate yourself and then decide what direction you want to go for your car.
I was feeling confident with a Comp grind, but after hearing about some comp failures, and learning more about engine life with XER lobes, I started reading up on Cam Motion based grinds.
CamMotion sounds like a premier company, which is appealing... But there doesn't seem to be as much info here on it.
I'm honestly wondering if I'm better off just using one of the TrickFlow top end kits. I know many will say "you can do better", but in what terms? Pure power?
Can you really get more optimized for a street setup by not using a kit such as the TFS top end setup?
I was in the same predicament as you once. I like peace of mind, so I bought morel lifters, TEA LS6 heads, Hubbard racing pump, Harland sharp trunion upgraded rockers, BTR platinum kit with steel retainers, EPS 226/230 on a 111+2. Don't know what pushrods I'm gonna get but probably the biggest ones I can get my hands on. I feel like my setup should easily go 50k miles (while changing springs of course) but on a 100% street car, it should fair well.
IMO the reason Comp Cams gets a bad rap is because they out produce/sell all the other cam companies combined by probably a margin of 50 to one.
Kinda like red cars are involved in more auto accidents each year than all the other colors combined. There simply are way more red cars...period !!!
A few years ago I had a Lunati flat tappet solid cam smear two lobes during break in of a stock car engine. I called them, sent it back, they analyzed the oil, and warrantied it no questions. The guy told me they have hundred of unexplained failures each year but it's a small percent when they sell several thousand cams.
What you never hear when someone has a Comp Cam failure is the car's owner admitting to using old *** stock lifters, wrong length or thin walled pushrods, and/or weak valve springs set up improperly. Some or most of these issues contribute to plenty of failures. I'm not at all saying that Comp and/or other companies haven't had cam core hardening issues, but putting ALL the facts in perspective, the failure rates of cams are amazingly low.
Kinda like red cars are involved in more auto accidents each year than all the other colors combined. There simply are way more red cars...period !!!
A few years ago I had a Lunati flat tappet solid cam smear two lobes during break in of a stock car engine. I called them, sent it back, they analyzed the oil, and warrantied it no questions. The guy told me they have hundred of unexplained failures each year but it's a small percent when they sell several thousand cams.
What you never hear when someone has a Comp Cam failure is the car's owner admitting to using old *** stock lifters, wrong length or thin walled pushrods, and/or weak valve springs set up improperly. Some or most of these issues contribute to plenty of failures. I'm not at all saying that Comp and/or other companies haven't had cam core hardening issues, but putting ALL the facts in perspective, the failure rates of cams are amazingly low.
I agree with what everyone else here is saying. I would not run xer lobes on a dd. People do it and theres no problems but nowadays theres no need to. Martin at tick uses softer lsl or lxl lobes along with his own design lobes to make dd friendly cams.
Nothing wrong with the trickflow package but yes you are leaving power and even some street manners on the table. Personally I would go with a cam motion grind. Now you can order from Kip at cam motion or get an EPS cam from Geoff either will actually be ground on a cam motion core or even martin can spec a cam based on a cam motion core if you ask.
Even taking away the failures comp has, and I'm sorry but comp even though a large manufacturer has too many cams fail for me to be the next guinea pig. Comp still uses a lower grade steel than cam motion cores which are 8620 billet. Also cam motion cams are shipped out with a CAM DR card for your specific cam ensuring it is exactly what you ordered. Comp ships out a generic card that has no actual measurements for your cam just what it "should be". I have seen quite a few comp cores that were ground several degrees off. That to me is worth the extra 60 bucks a cam motion core costs.
In the end EPS, Kip, or Martin will get you lobes that will be safe for a DD and spring friendly.
Nothing wrong with the trickflow package but yes you are leaving power and even some street manners on the table. Personally I would go with a cam motion grind. Now you can order from Kip at cam motion or get an EPS cam from Geoff either will actually be ground on a cam motion core or even martin can spec a cam based on a cam motion core if you ask.
Even taking away the failures comp has, and I'm sorry but comp even though a large manufacturer has too many cams fail for me to be the next guinea pig. Comp still uses a lower grade steel than cam motion cores which are 8620 billet. Also cam motion cams are shipped out with a CAM DR card for your specific cam ensuring it is exactly what you ordered. Comp ships out a generic card that has no actual measurements for your cam just what it "should be". I have seen quite a few comp cores that were ground several degrees off. That to me is worth the extra 60 bucks a cam motion core costs.
In the end EPS, Kip, or Martin will get you lobes that will be safe for a DD and spring friendly.
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Thread Starter
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Joined: Feb 2007
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From: Boston, MA
I agree with what everyone else here is saying. I would not run xer lobes on a dd. People do it and theres no problems but nowadays theres no need to. Martin at tick uses softer lsl or lxl lobes along with his own design lobes to make dd friendly cams.
Nothing wrong with the trickflow package but yes you are leaving power and even some street manners on the table. Personally I would go with a cam motion grind. Now you can order from Kip at cam motion or get an EPS cam from Geoff either will actually be ground on a cam motion core or even martin can spec a cam based on a cam motion core if you ask.
Even taking away the failures comp has, and I'm sorry but comp even though a large manufacturer has too many cams fail for me to be the next guinea pig. Comp still uses a lower grade steel than cam motion cores which are 8620 billet. Also cam motion cams are shipped out with a CAM DR card for your specific cam ensuring it is exactly what you ordered. Comp ships out a generic card that has no actual measurements for your cam just what it "should be". I have seen quite a few comp cores that were ground several degrees off. That to me is worth the extra 60 bucks a cam motion core costs.
In the end EPS, Kip, or Martin will get you lobes that will be safe for a DD and spring friendly.
Nothing wrong with the trickflow package but yes you are leaving power and even some street manners on the table. Personally I would go with a cam motion grind. Now you can order from Kip at cam motion or get an EPS cam from Geoff either will actually be ground on a cam motion core or even martin can spec a cam based on a cam motion core if you ask.
Even taking away the failures comp has, and I'm sorry but comp even though a large manufacturer has too many cams fail for me to be the next guinea pig. Comp still uses a lower grade steel than cam motion cores which are 8620 billet. Also cam motion cams are shipped out with a CAM DR card for your specific cam ensuring it is exactly what you ordered. Comp ships out a generic card that has no actual measurements for your cam just what it "should be". I have seen quite a few comp cores that were ground several degrees off. That to me is worth the extra 60 bucks a cam motion core costs.
In the end EPS, Kip, or Martin will get you lobes that will be safe for a DD and spring friendly.
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Nope, I'm not going to be scared down another path just because they had a short run of cams with issues. The better question would be: How many Comp Cams does Tick Performance sell in a year and how many of their customers have had problems with these grinds from that sales period?
But if I had the OPTION, from the same vendor, I'd sure as hell have Cam Motion grind the cam.
I've been there and walked the place. It's amazing seeing bar stock go from exactly that, to a finished ready to ship cam. The guys there do excellent work, and take PRIDE in what they're doing.
OP you can't go wrong either way. I'm a big fan of both Martin and Geoff.
I've been there and walked the place. It's amazing seeing bar stock go from exactly that, to a finished ready to ship cam. The guys there do excellent work, and take PRIDE in what they're doing.
OP you can't go wrong either way. I'm a big fan of both Martin and Geoff.
Thread Starter
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From: Boston, MA
It seems most would agree, for my needs at least, that staying away from XER grinds would be in my best interest.
Would I be wrong in stating that XER lobes are strictly designed for just Making power, whereas these other grinds described give you a good boost, without sacrificing too much?
Would I be wrong in stating that XER lobes are strictly designed for just Making power, whereas these other grinds described give you a good boost, without sacrificing too much?
But if I had the OPTION, from the same vendor, I'd sure as hell have Cam Motion grind the cam.
I've been there and walked the place. It's amazing seeing bar stock go from exactly that, to a finished ready to ship cam. The guys there do excellent work, and take PRIDE in what they're doing.
OP you can't go wrong either way. I'm a big fan of both Martin and Geoff.
I've been there and walked the place. It's amazing seeing bar stock go from exactly that, to a finished ready to ship cam. The guys there do excellent work, and take PRIDE in what they're doing.
OP you can't go wrong either way. I'm a big fan of both Martin and Geoff.
Martin can grind cams on cam motion cores if you just ask. He mentioned it in another thread. He would have to use cam motions or his own lobes obviously since he can't take comps. There will be an up charge but it would be the same price as any other place. So no that's not a turn off for me.
Xer lobes really don't make much more if any power over lobes of newer design. Sometimes technology progresses and there is no downside the older stuff just simply isn't as good. Which is the case here. Not that there's anything wrong with xer but there are just better ways now.
I don't want to turn this into another comp bs the world thread. So I'll leave this here as my last comment about that..... If you buy into the whole statistic thing which to a point I understand, how do we explain the fact that comp is the only vendor at least here you hear of issues with surely other manufactures should have some failures we hear about? Lunati for the most part and cam motion are never in line with those problems. And believe me I'm pretty sure they make more than a few cams.
Couple that with why does Ed Curtis now use lunati for a grinder? And why did pat g and Geoff switch to cam motion from comp? The answers are here if you call them or search
Even Barring all that. For an extra 50-60 bucks you get a cam dr report AND a better core. So why not go with a company that uses better materials?
Xer lobes really don't make much more if any power over lobes of newer design. Sometimes technology progresses and there is no downside the older stuff just simply isn't as good. Which is the case here. Not that there's anything wrong with xer but there are just better ways now.
I don't want to turn this into another comp bs the world thread. So I'll leave this here as my last comment about that..... If you buy into the whole statistic thing which to a point I understand, how do we explain the fact that comp is the only vendor at least here you hear of issues with surely other manufactures should have some failures we hear about? Lunati for the most part and cam motion are never in line with those problems. And believe me I'm pretty sure they make more than a few cams.
Couple that with why does Ed Curtis now use lunati for a grinder? And why did pat g and Geoff switch to cam motion from comp? The answers are here if you call them or search
Even Barring all that. For an extra 50-60 bucks you get a cam dr report AND a better core. So why not go with a company that uses better materials?
Last edited by redbird555; Feb 1, 2015 at 04:32 PM.
It seems most would agree, for my needs at least, that staying away from XER grinds would be in my best interest.
Would I be wrong in stating that XER lobes are strictly designed for just Making power, whereas these other grinds described give you a good boost, without sacrificing too much?
Would I be wrong in stating that XER lobes are strictly designed for just Making power, whereas these other grinds described give you a good boost, without sacrificing too much?
Martin can grind cams on cam motion cores if you just ask. He mentioned it in another thread. He would have to use cam motions or his own lobes obviously since he can't take comps. There will be an up charge but it would be the same price as any other place. So no that's not a turn off for me.
Xer lobes really don't make much more if any power over lobes of newer design. Sometimes technology progresses and there is no downside the older stuff just simply isn't as good. Which is the case here. Not that there's anything wrong with xer but there are just better ways now.
I don't want to turn this into another comp bs the world thread. So I'll leave this here as my last comment about that..... If you buy into the whole statistic thing which to a point I understand, how do we explain the fact that comp is the only vendor at least here you hear of issues with surely other manufactures should have some failures we hear about? Lunati for the most part and cam motion are never in line with those problems. And believe me I'm pretty sure they make more than a few cams.
Couple that with why does Ed Curtis now use lunati for a grinder? And why did pat g and Geoff switch to cam motion from comp? The answers are here if you call them or search
Even Barring all that. For an extra 50-60 bucks you get a cam dr report AND a better core. So why not go with a company that uses better materials?
Xer lobes really don't make much more if any power over lobes of newer design. Sometimes technology progresses and there is no downside the older stuff just simply isn't as good. Which is the case here. Not that there's anything wrong with xer but there are just better ways now.
I don't want to turn this into another comp bs the world thread. So I'll leave this here as my last comment about that..... If you buy into the whole statistic thing which to a point I understand, how do we explain the fact that comp is the only vendor at least here you hear of issues with surely other manufactures should have some failures we hear about? Lunati for the most part and cam motion are never in line with those problems. And believe me I'm pretty sure they make more than a few cams.
Couple that with why does Ed Curtis now use lunati for a grinder? And why did pat g and Geoff switch to cam motion from comp? The answers are here if you call them or search
Even Barring all that. For an extra 50-60 bucks you get a cam dr report AND a better core. So why not go with a company that uses better materials?
No I never gave them the chance. I have many friends though that wiped out there's in short time and 1 that whined from the get go. They all went cam motion and have had no problems since with the same setup. One still runs a comp grind and his is fine. Just not the odds I care to play with my motor
FWIW all of our shelf cams from Comp have a 1 cylinder cam doctor report in the box.
We also are dealers for Cam Motion as well as Bullet aside from Comp.
I run a Comp Cam in my own race engine(see avatar) as I wouldn't sell a product I wouldn't run in my own engine.
We also are dealers for Cam Motion as well as Bullet aside from Comp.
I run a Comp Cam in my own race engine(see avatar) as I wouldn't sell a product I wouldn't run in my own engine.
That is correct sir. Comp has two 24" Adcole 911's and one 36" Adcole 911. Both of which have many different functions and features. Spectrum analysis is one of them which can see amplitude of surface chatter.
