carbuff

iTrader: (8)

Jake wasn't the only person who read that with interest... I noticed it too and am wondering how other products compare. I just haven't had time to research it more.

Tony @ Mamo Motorsports

Alright....just making sure you guys are paying attention.....LOL

Part of the problem with the other comparisons are comparing numbers from different flow equipment and looking at advertised numbers is in general a waste of time. If you want some amusement there as "oldie but a goodie" thread I started a decade ago is a sticky in this section that highlights just that.

Unless your comparing numbers off the same equipment, comparing flow data is (unfortunately) a fruitless exercise.

-Tony

A.R. Shale Targa

iTrader: (2)

Curious as to what if......?????
someone gets a set of these with the hollow valve upgrade AND Mamofied; could you run a trunion upgraded stock rocker and say a gentle lobe .550" lift cam without ruining the valve guides in ten thousand miles ???
Even the flow numbers of these at 550 are as good or better than most comparable heads at 600 lift.
Or is there simply no way around the thousand dollar additional rockers needed to run these heads ???

unit

Just curious. Why would factory rockers with trunion upgrades wear out the valve guides in 10,000 miles or so? I have this setup, brand new MMS 220 heads, mild cam and comp cam trunion upgrade. Car runs great but doesn't idle well and won't get tuned until this Friday. I'll let you know what the dyno numbers turn out to be.

A.R. Shale Targa

iTrader: (2)

Please do sir......I'd be very interested
The shape of the tip on the factory rocker seems to run out of geometry at right around .570"-.580" net valve movement. IIRC Brian Tooley considered 550" lift to be about the most (safe and conservative) that you should run, although recently he's been quoted as saying 600 is fine. Plenty of so called six hundred lift cams end up maxing out the lift capabilities (factoring in deflections) and I've seen a .624" lobe just murder the valve tip and rocker tip in only a few thousand miles of abuse. I know Tony is a huge fan of the Yella Terra or Jesel rockers but people chipping off 2650 or more with upgrades might be gun shy if an additional thousand or so dollars is also needed in order to maintain long term reliability....which is why I asked the designer of said master piece.

carbuff

iTrader: (8)

Understood, just like comparing numbers from different dynos.

But I imagine we could see some trends with data at least.

JakeFusion

iTrader: (7)

Tony, I saw it, but didn't think much about it until earlier this week. But then I started thinking about it on the 235s and there you go.

I'm working on getting my car really truly finalized (I have more chassis work and the rearend still) before I go into the engine again. But I'm putting together my shopping list.

I want a 416. I want to run 235 cathedral ports, and I'm pretty sure it'll be solid roller... but I'm not looking to push the RPM super high as I'll reuse my FAST 102. I just want more valve control and overall power everywhere (with maybe a more streetable cam). Some Morel Ultra Pros, T&D Shaft Mounts, and Cam Motion Low Lash Solid Roller Cam (thinking something in the 250/255 114 range would be strong) with some 3/8" Manton Series 5 pushrods seem like they are all in my future... of course, I may need to swap to a 2" primary header. But the 1-7/8" I have may work given the extremely strong exhaust port on the 235s...

NAVYBLUE210

Jake,
1 7/8 LTs good to at least 600 RWHP if running 3" duals.
Witnessed Jeremy's 417" built by Tony with MAMOFIED AFR 230s
Make 663 CHP & later made 580 RWHP in his Firebird, with 11.4:1 Comp,
243*/247* .624"/.624" 114*+2*

With MMS 235s,light valves and Kips LLSR with about .680"/.650" lift
With previous specs (+~8* to account for lash) should be good for
600+ RWHP
I would consider MAMOFIED FAST 102 with Mid length runners or the MSD Intake a bigger HP return vs 2" Headers, for less $$$.

JakeFusion

iTrader: (7)

I'd probably aim for 11.8:1. I do have 3" true duals. And so the 250/255 114 looks like a very similar cam to the 243/247 hydraulic. I would probably do something close on the lifts ~ .680/.660.

I would probably get the FAST 102 mamofied and would look for 600 if I had an M6. 575 would be okay with the A4.

Exidous

iTrader: (11)

The "need" for roller rockers isn't primarily for the health of the valve tips. It's for the bronze guides. As the rocker pushes up and down, there is also a lateral force due to friction. The bearing on rollers greatly minimizes this force. A set of Yella Terra shaft rockers are a far cry from $1000. Half in fact and increase guide life exponentially.

Factory heads use powdered metal steel guides and are much harder making stock rockers a good choice. You can have AFR/Mamo heads upgraded to PMS guides.

I ordered the light intake valves. Exh and Int weight about the same now. With the good springs, Johnson lifers, YT rockers and fancy push rods, I'm hoping for a very stable high RPM.


Jake,
I was told 3/8" PR's will not fit without modification. Maybe the 220's are different but Tony said the 11/32" are the biggest you can run out of the box. Even a set of tapered would not fit so long as the body of the shaft is 3/8". I really wish a 3/8" would fit. A 3/8" .080" is lighter and stiffer than a 11/32" .120"

I'm running a much smaller cam, in the 220's so my SCR will be about 11.5 and DCR about 8.9. I would have liked more SCR but I wanted a tame cam more. :-) Now I just need to find a dyno in the area....

A.R. Shale Targa

iTrader: (2)

Obviously from my original question related to the guides, my point about my buddy's rocker/valve tip was that I can only imagine the binding and undue wear on his TSP heads valve guides. My fears about YT are that everyone seems to have a broken one here and there. Almost any of the three designs now have some sort of spontaneous breakage. How many of these are on unhealthy/non maintained valve trains and how many are the result of being beat on before being fully heat cycled.....who knows right. Does YT get a bad rap or are some of the designs just not up to snuff ?????

Darth_V8r

iTrader: (4)

I tend to think that a lot of vendors get a bad rap in part due to poor set ups on our (the driver/user/installer) end, so keep that in mind with what I'm about to say...

Steel is far stronger than aluminum AND it has at least an order of magnitude better fatigue life. When you start looking at deflection AND the shear number of times those rockers get loaded and unloaded AND the loads they must endure (Martin had a post where he calculated out the forces on the rocker are equivalent to lifting a corvette), steel makes a lot of sense.

I don't think it's bad design at all - just goes with the material selection

Exidous

iTrader: (11)

Aye, there was also an issue with the early yt not having enough material around the cup and pivot point. If the ratio stamp is to the right of the oil hole it's the updated design. Obviously not infallible but still much better than the old ones. For every broken rocker there are hundreds if not thousands running for miles and miles without ever an issue.

JakeFusion

iTrader: (7)

My take: stock rockers with upgraded trunions... or go apeshit and buy T&D or Crower shaft rockers.

Darth_V8r

iTrader: (4)

Exactly what I wanted to say, just trying NOT to hijack an awesome thread about heads

redbird555

iTrader: (14)

Tony is big into yella terra and has his reason imo. He didn't seem to like me running jesels or t&d because of their tip weight. I know he uses yt on all his big builds. The newest gen yt stuff is fine and Mano also has his own 10mm version if you use his heads or tap stock ones. I personally wouldn't fret about running the new yts.

I was all ready to pull the trigger on a setup with tony before I found out my motor was damaged. Sorry tony either way he's a helluva guy to talk to so just give him a call if you want specific questions answered

JakeFusion

iTrader: (7)

I wouldn't use the Jesel or T&D stuff on hydraulic cams. The weight is detrimental.

But, I'm now to the point that I don't recommend hydraulic at all. So, it is what it is.

Tony @ Mamo Motorsports

^^^^^

This....and IMO they get a bad rap from poor installs, springs not selected or installed properly (light coil bind will break parts over time), valve float, guys that goose a cold engine to show off in front of their buddies....etc.

Let me wrap all this up in a nice bow for you guys cause honestly some of what I read here is off base and your only hurting yourselves and others reading this with semi bad info. The entire point of the Ultralite series was to be just that.....lightweight, in an effort to offer the end user valve float free performance which is both dangerous to your engine and kills power very abruptly. Hydraulic rollers are very prone to valve float....especially with standard non limited travel lifters (which act more like a solid lifter). Weight is the enemy in valvetrain control and one of the only reasons the OEM rocker does an OK job is it is in fact a lightweight steel rocker arm but all the good stuff stops there. It was never designed to handle large lift cams and over twice the spring pressure most OEM set-ups leave the showroom. It scrubs and imparts sideloading on the valve stems which promotes premature guide wear further aggravated by the additional lift and spring pressures associated with performance aftermarket set-ups.

A trunion upgrade simply reduces the chance of losing your OEM needle bearings but does nothing to address the scrubbing and sideloading of your valves. I encourage any and all of you to actually check the wipe pattern of a stock rocker arm and a .600 lift cam.....while the desired result is a narrow rectangle and a properly shimmed YT will give you that, the OEM rocker is literally a square.....you guys would be blow away how much of the OEM rocker is scrubbing across the valve tip. A roller rocker offers less friction (it rolls), less heat, and is much more purposeful in its action only imparting forces in the direction of valve motion.....minimal side to side loading which is undesirable.

The Yella Terra history.....the 1st gens were a bit too light.....not quite enough mass to give good reliability long term (and cover mismatched applications or bad judgement) and would fail occasionally when things weren't ideal (full disclosure.....I did had a few failures with the Gen 1 stuff or should I say some of the customers I helped).

That situation unfortunately gave them most of the bad stigma they still have today because of guys spewing something the read about 5 years ago (or heard about) that doesn't relate to the product available today. In 2010 or so the 2nd gen versions were released with more material in key areas of the rocker arm....that eliminated 90% of the problems some of the originals experienced and the failure rate dropped dramatically. 12-18 months ago the latest version was introduced and honestly I have sold and helped people with more sets of these than I can count and I only know of a single failure. No product is perfect....and in this hobby some guys can break stuff with a rubber mallet if you know what I mean.

I want it all....lightweight, perfect valve control, a roller tip, great wipe pattern, minimal side to side stem loading, and a reasonable level of reliability. The 3rd generation YT Ultralite offers all of that and does so at a reasonable cost of admission. Even my "Pro 10mm" version that Yella Terra builds for me exclusively is only seven hundred and some change including the head machining to accept the larger 10mm bolts and pedestals (beefier more rigid base and larger bolts for less rocker arm flex and more action at the valve.....better net lift and duration = more power and more reliability). The standard 8mm kit is a couple of hundred less than that and a straight bolt on.....investing money into the stock OEM rockers and all their compromises in a serious performance engine is silly.....spend a little more and get the results you want....the Ultralites are the right tool for the job when discussing an HR application.

BUT.....if your going solid roller and running more spring pressure as you should with a solid set-up, the heavier rocker gear such as T&D, Crower, etc. is a good option because the solid roller set-up needs the extra heft and valve float is not typically a concern. FWIW, Yella Terra offers beefier twin shaft design rockers as well with adjusters etc. for an SR set-up and the rocker arm is much beefier....its designed for close to 700 lbs of open pressure and is a little cheaper than the big name shaft systems but you couldn't go wrong with any of these options in an SR application.


I really hope this post helps and clears some things up.....I see this as a reoccurring theme on this board and I stand firmly on my opinions regarding this. Notice every build I'm heavily involved in has a power curve that looks like a solid roller with a perfect arc and no funny business. Not an accident.....the devil is in all the details and picking the optimal components for the job at hand. Valvetrain control is worth so much more than most folks realize and effects both power and reliability in a very significant way....spend the extra coin to do it right (the Mamo "mantra".....LOL)

-Tony

redbird555

iTrader: (14)

Thanks for that explanation tony. I don't want to clog up the thread anymore but since my old build went bust I've been toying with the idea of doing a max bolt on build for my new ls3. Basically 1.8 ratio ultralites, appropriate springs and pushrods along with a parted intake. Just wondering your thoughts on if that's worth some power over a stock setup. Pm me if you can

Fwiw I can't wait to see what these heads do. I think a MMS 220 with a tiny cam in an ls1 would be just awesome. Stock manners and gobs of power

JakeFusion

iTrader: (7)

Tony, what additional machining would be needed to run the Crower or T&D Shafts for the SR setups?