Is my instructor wrong?
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TECH Apprentice
Joined: Oct 2014
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From: Iowa
Is my instructor wrong? So, I asked my instructor today in class if there was any certain way I could keep the lifters from falling while removing camshaft.. (02 ls1, ls6 intake, 241 heads etc)
I told him there was a pair of jrp lifter tools for the ls1 that I could buy for... what 100$+? anyways...
he said it was impossible, youd have to take heads off...
so i showed him the video of a guy using the tool and he was shocked.. hes olschool
anyways, after accepting that fact... he said there was only one way to remove valve springs... and that was with compressed air.
BUT! on the same site that I found out about the 'lifter tool' There were 2 options to keep valves up while putting new springs on.. and that was using the TDC manual crank individually on each piston.
I told him about the second option and he said it wouldnt work without compressed air.... or else the 'valves would still fall an inch or so into piston without compressed air' he stated.
is this just another oldschool error he has? is this tdc option just a new aged way of doing it since the ls1 came out that he may not know about?
I'm to the point of knowing all I need to know about cam swapping... its just that I dont have compressed air at home.....soooo thoughts?
thanks and sorry for long post
I told him there was a pair of jrp lifter tools for the ls1 that I could buy for... what 100$+? anyways...
he said it was impossible, youd have to take heads off...
so i showed him the video of a guy using the tool and he was shocked.. hes olschool
anyways, after accepting that fact... he said there was only one way to remove valve springs... and that was with compressed air.
BUT! on the same site that I found out about the 'lifter tool' There were 2 options to keep valves up while putting new springs on.. and that was using the TDC manual crank individually on each piston.
I told him about the second option and he said it wouldnt work without compressed air.... or else the 'valves would still fall an inch or so into piston without compressed air' he stated.
is this just another oldschool error he has? is this tdc option just a new aged way of doing it since the ls1 came out that he may not know about?
I'm to the point of knowing all I need to know about cam swapping... its just that I dont have compressed air at home.....soooo thoughts?
thanks and sorry for long post
Well, here is how I did it with the heads on and everything:
1. I used 24" long 5/16" wooden dowels. Insert them where the JRP tool goes. Works like a charm. $3 at Lowe's. Obviously, this is after removing the rockers and pushrods and spinning the cam a few times to get all the lifters pushed up.
2. I used the TDC method with one slight modification. I had removed the sprak plugs to make it easier to turn. I stuffed rope in the spark hole to "pad" the valve to piston contact and prevent dings. Pulled the rope out when done.
FYI - if you don't stuff rope in there, the valves drop about 1/4" at most, so you can do it just fine with nothing in there.
1. I used 24" long 5/16" wooden dowels. Insert them where the JRP tool goes. Works like a charm. $3 at Lowe's. Obviously, this is after removing the rockers and pushrods and spinning the cam a few times to get all the lifters pushed up.
2. I used the TDC method with one slight modification. I had removed the sprak plugs to make it easier to turn. I stuffed rope in the spark hole to "pad" the valve to piston contact and prevent dings. Pulled the rope out when done.
FYI - if you don't stuff rope in there, the valves drop about 1/4" at most, so you can do it just fine with nothing in there.
ive only ever seen someone swapping springs with compressed air while the heads were on the car, and even then you still have to be carefull because when you compress the spring it doesnt always release from the locks and you can open the valve and drop it by accident anyway. lightly tapping on it will usually free it up.
Thread Starter
TECH Apprentice
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From: Iowa
ok thanks for the input. So the special tool or wooden dowel.....all it does is set under the lifters while you manually move the cam until all of them are put into the trays?
and without compressed air... using the 'rope' way like Darth v8r, what are the consequences of the valves dropping down even 1/4 of an inch? harder spring installation?
and without compressed air... using the 'rope' way like Darth v8r, what are the consequences of the valves dropping down even 1/4 of an inch? harder spring installation?
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Joined: Dec 2008
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You need to have a decent air compressor on hand. The engine won't seal perfect and you'll hear air leaking back into the manifold by the valves or rings or what have you. A small harbor freight tire filler isn't going to suffice. I used one and it wasn't going to cut it. Ended up doing the TDC every cylinder method. There's a procedure for it in the cam swap how to that's floating around on here.
Also, lever action single spring tools suck. It's worth it to acquire one of the many available dual spring bolt down tools.
Also, lever action single spring tools suck. It's worth it to acquire one of the many available dual spring bolt down tools.
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The top edge of the spring retainer needs a nudge to break the valve keepers loose. There are 2 keepers on each valve tip wedged into the sides of the valve tip. The retainer seats these keepers in place. If you tried to compress the springs without nudging the retainer loose from the keepers the valve will follow the retainer. You want the retainer and springs to move down and the keepers stay on the valve tip sides.
Look at some valve pictures on google to get a better idea what you are getting into.
Look at some valve pictures on google to get a better idea what you are getting into.
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I gotta warn you this is NOT a good 1st timer project. You should have a experienced dood to look over you. Don't do things you don't fully understand, the road to hell is paved with good intentions.
Also you can do 2 cylinders at a time by looking at the firing order.example when cylinder number 1 is at tdc you can change number 6 because its at tdc too.
1-8-7-2-6-5-4-3 .........so its 1-6,8-5,7-4 and 2-3
Also you can do 2 cylinders at a time by looking at the firing order.example when cylinder number 1 is at tdc you can change number 6 because its at tdc too.
1-8-7-2-6-5-4-3 .........so its 1-6,8-5,7-4 and 2-3
Last edited by RockinWs6; Mar 25, 2015 at 03:58 PM.
You can also feed a little bit of soft rope in the combustion chamber, leaving some hanging out of the spark plug hole. Roll the motor around gently until it stops. You can then remove valve springs, and not worry about the valves dropping any, which it makes it easier to put springs back on.
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Joined: Oct 2014
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From: Iowa
Thanks guys. I am new to camswap but not new to SBC. I've done alot of timing work with my old corvette. Buy thanks for input. I'll probably do springs at school with air compressor and then can install at home on a weekend. But when the cam install comes, all I'll have to do is loosen rocker arms when the time comes?
Personally, I find the LS1 easier to work on than the SBC.
To answer your question from post 5, the consequences of not using rope and the valves dropping is that you have to compress the springs that much more to get the retainers in. It can be done, and you won't blow up the engine. I prefer using TDC and rope over compressed air, because there is no need to use a hammer or anything. You compress the springs, and they eventually pull down far enough to let go of the retainers. It takes longer due to rotating the engine over, but no risk of dropping a valve.
I take the front cover off before starting the springs. I use the cam sprocket timing marks to help me with TDC. 6-oclock is cylinders 1 and 6, 7:30 is cylinders 8 and 5, 9-oclock is cylinders 7 and 4, 10:30 is cylinders 2 and 3. Still verify the cylinder is in the correct position before compressing the spring.
Another item - get a good valve spring compressor designed for the LS1 off of summit. I got the procomp tool. I tried doing it with the older, more traditional VS compressors, and the job quickly spiraled downward. It seems crazy to spend $100+ on the compressor when there are $25 tools out there. Get the good tool.
To answer your question from post 5, the consequences of not using rope and the valves dropping is that you have to compress the springs that much more to get the retainers in. It can be done, and you won't blow up the engine. I prefer using TDC and rope over compressed air, because there is no need to use a hammer or anything. You compress the springs, and they eventually pull down far enough to let go of the retainers. It takes longer due to rotating the engine over, but no risk of dropping a valve.
I take the front cover off before starting the springs. I use the cam sprocket timing marks to help me with TDC. 6-oclock is cylinders 1 and 6, 7:30 is cylinders 8 and 5, 9-oclock is cylinders 7 and 4, 10:30 is cylinders 2 and 3. Still verify the cylinder is in the correct position before compressing the spring.
Another item - get a good valve spring compressor designed for the LS1 off of summit. I got the procomp tool. I tried doing it with the older, more traditional VS compressors, and the job quickly spiraled downward. It seems crazy to spend $100+ on the compressor when there are $25 tools out there. Get the good tool.
Fresh valve seals will hold valves seated while you put springs on too if you want to just to TDC.
Ever heard the old saying "those who can't do teach"?
For the most part I will trust enthusiasts over mechanics and instructors or dealership employees.
Ever heard the old saying "those who can't do teach"?
For the most part I will trust enthusiasts over mechanics and instructors or dealership employees.
Rope trick works great. But an FYI on this, try to use a cotton rope, not synthetic or nylon. This was if the rope frays a little and leaves stuff in the cylinder, the cotton cant hurt anything. Just gets burned up and spit out the exhaust.
As for the valve dropping without the rope. No big deal as long as you have that piston all the way up. But it does make it pretty hard to get the retainers back on. You'll have to compress the hell out of the springs.
Also when "tapping" the top of the retainer to loosen the keepers up a little, use a rubber mallet, not a steel hammer. You cant damage the top of the valve with a rubber hammer.
And when you get the retainers and keepers put back in, ALWAYS give them a few smacks with your rubber hammer. It helps make sure the keepers are really seated in the retainers. Ive seen people not do this step and have the retainers pop off when they start the engine.
Now just have some fun. Take your time and you'll be fine.
As for the valve dropping without the rope. No big deal as long as you have that piston all the way up. But it does make it pretty hard to get the retainers back on. You'll have to compress the hell out of the springs.
Also when "tapping" the top of the retainer to loosen the keepers up a little, use a rubber mallet, not a steel hammer. You cant damage the top of the valve with a rubber hammer.
And when you get the retainers and keepers put back in, ALWAYS give them a few smacks with your rubber hammer. It helps make sure the keepers are really seated in the retainers. Ive seen people not do this step and have the retainers pop off when they start the engine.
Now just have some fun. Take your time and you'll be fine.
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From: Iowa
Cant believe how much motivation you all have given me...Thanks a lot, and I will do the best I can!
Pretty sure I'll go with replacing springs and cam all together at home without compressed air so I can take my time.
One more thing, is 450$ for a hotcam a rip off? Texas speed performance gave me the deal. Its a 218/227 112lsa with .525 lift.
Thanks again guys
Pretty sure I'll go with replacing springs and cam all together at home without compressed air so I can take my time.
One more thing, is 450$ for a hotcam a rip off? Texas speed performance gave me the deal. Its a 218/227 112lsa with .525 lift.
Thanks again guys
Seems like this has already been thoroughly covered but here's my experience.
I do not use compressed air either. Although I have a big compressor with an extra 50 gal. Reservoir the air hissing past the rings etc becomes annoying.
I use the TDC method but rather than a piece of rope, I use one of those big Slurpee straws.
Also, I might suggest doing cylinders 1,2,3,4 first to get a good feel for the process and the compressor tool before you try to tackle 7 and especially 8 under the cowl.
I do not use compressed air either. Although I have a big compressor with an extra 50 gal. Reservoir the air hissing past the rings etc becomes annoying.
I use the TDC method but rather than a piece of rope, I use one of those big Slurpee straws.
Also, I might suggest doing cylinders 1,2,3,4 first to get a good feel for the process and the compressor tool before you try to tackle 7 and especially 8 under the cowl.