CattleAc

iTrader: (7)

I really appreciate all the advice and suggestions...

The reason for the 3.55's...when I had the SM465 and the 4.10's I HATED that combo, I installed the 3.55's LONG before I even thought about doing the LS swap...

I am not always hooked to a trailer, or loaded both directions...I REALLY like my 3.55's when I'm on the Interstate, an empty trailer, or using it like a car.

I fully understand, and agree with the "lower gear" comments...

But, if I need to gear down...I'll run in "Direct"...

3.55 at 65 = 1750 RPM in OD, In direct = 2500 RPM
3.55 at 75 = 2020 RPM

4.10 at 65 = 2020 RPM
4.10 at 75 = 2330 RPM

Again, I do not want to rub anyone the wrong way...(I'm all about the headers, intake swap, better heads. All excellent suggestions)...but, my reason for starting this thread was for us guys that don't really want to go "all out", just a simple cam swap, maybe cheap GM "blue" springs.

I actually really like the way this thing performs now compared to how it was...I'd just like to have that "little bit more" that I think Kip or Martin can give me with a mild cam...

Thanks, and keep the advice coming...

Tuskyz28

Sound like gears/stall choice is more important than a engine size or torque/horsepower.

Us as LS guys need to come up with a PROVEN towing motor recipe . After all GM does make a small block called the 383 HT..... designed for towing applicatios in older trucks . Motor cost less than 5 grand. Puts out only 340 horses but torque is like 435 ft lbs at 4000 rpm. My question is can a LS platform motor beat the old school small block Chevy for the same amount or less money.

I know I've already said it but let's hear and test real world results. Most guys on here own camaros/Firebirds and have a open 18 ft trailer. It would be awesome if someone had a Chevelle(heavier than a f-body) and see what cams works best on the highway, stop and go, steep hill cline,etc.....

CattleAc

iTrader: (7)

Well Tusky...I think I'm your huckleberry there also...

I have a 1972 Chevelle wagon that weighs in at 4420 with driver and full of fuel...

It's powered by a 5.3L L59 truck engine right now. Soon to be replaced by a 6.0L forged sleeper engine...then it's game on as far as recommendations go...headers, intake, stall, gears, tune, and of course a cam...

Tuskyz28

Now we talking!! Thread is getting better and better. I love that Wagon. Just a retirement home sleeper!!

Perfect car for the towing test!!

AnotherWs6

iTrader: (17)

Keep in mind that it's not just the cruising speed, its how the truck feels in general. If your cruising speed is super low but it takes half an hour to get there..... you know? My truck is an absolute pig when towing unless it is well ABOVE 2,500 rpm. When it's hilly I regularly cruise at 3,000 rpm, often times 3,330, 3,400 to keep up speed on long hills. That's what it takes to maintain 70 in 3rd gear when over drive just wont cut it. LS motors are a different animal, cruising at 3 grand is no problem, so cruising at 2,500 is cake. No need to be shooting for high teens like we used to.

NorCalAnthony

You can definitely get a “little bit more” by only swapping the cam but that’ll be about it without upgrading the supporting components (heads, intake, exhaust, etc). I was in the same boat a while ago when I was trying to figure out what to do with the 5.3 I’m using in my swap and after a lot of reading and asking questions on here the general consensus was that whatever cam shaft you get will only be as good as the other parts in the engine and that it’s better to wait a little longer until you can acquire those other pieces so you can get the most out of everything. I’m still working on a budget so I’ve been sticking with OEM parts but I was able to pick up my 243 heads pretty cheap off Craigslist and got a complete TBSS intake on here for only $150. These aren’t top of the line improvements compared to what a lot of people on here do with their weekend/track cars but they’ll definitely help with the power potential of my engine and were able to be fit in to my tight engine budget pretty easily. Just food for thought…

I’m sure Martin and Kip will be able to make something that’ll suit your needs (both great guys with great products) but since you don’t want to replace anything besides the cam and springs a custom cam shaft might not be necessary. Have you looked at some of the “drop in” cams yet? Brian Tooley has a line specifically for the LS trucks that have a ton of good reviews out there. They’re made to be used with the cheap LS6 springs that can be bought as a package for only $439 http://www.briantooleyracing.com/btr...-camshaft.html. Cam Motion also has a couple drop in cams for the LS trucks available http://store.cammotion.com/drop-in-c...0-truck-364ci-. Cam Motion has some really nice lobe profiles that are easy on the valve train while still making great power and they use better quality steel in their cores (hence the higher price). I could never really find any reviews or a whole lot of information about the truck cams back when I was looking at them though...

Sales@Tick

iTrader: (3)

I think with a nice 30rwhp bump in power(maybe slightly more) and 25rwtq across the curve you'll see a noticeable increase in towing power, and a little extra get up and go to chirp the tires when you feel like it.

Feel free to email me, martin@tick-performance.com or give me a call at the shop.

Mercier

iTrader: (15)

The "waggin" is fricken sweet too. Humidity down here would return that to the earth within a year unfortunately. Gotta keep everything covered, painted, and conditioned unfortunately in south LA. :-/

Please don't underestimate the newer truck intake..you can find them for $100 or less(or available via Amazon for $111 brand new), and you can adapt your fuel rails and TB. It's just better all around IMO. You don't /need/ it for lower RPMs but it's a cheap upgrade and just more efficient all around I think. I think a proper cam that you are headed for would appreciate it.

If you look at the raw size(volume) of the two intakes(old vs. new), you will see there is just more area in there for longer, better-breathing runners. I think. . Runs well for me at least.

Look at "new" style:


Vs. "old" style and it's kind of apparent:

http://image.truckinweb.com/f/tech/e...ory_intake.jpg

...at least to me. Just a lot more runner and plenum area IMO. Maybe someone can correct or corroborate me here.

Tuskyz28

You guys that own the 5.3 motors..... just how much you tow(ing)?

omc8

iTrader: (7)

While I am a fan of NNBS intake and I believe they it will make more power . There has been a report that , one shop swaped one to the new style and suffered a torque loss down low . I believe that may be just an isolated incident , but they swapped back to the old and the TQ came back .

Mercier

iTrader: (15)

It is designed around a significantly larger intake tract so I guess it makes sense that low speed velocity might be lost. Perhaps OP has the best intake for <4500RPM after all. Wonder how the late intake would perform with the factory(smaller) MAF and throttle body.

Sales@Tick

iTrader: (3)

4500-5000lbs. 18' car trailer with a 3000lb. car.

Will be picking up my new 05' 1500 I mentioned on Monday. Found out it also has the GT4 RPO code so its got 3.73's from the factory. That will definitely be a benefit over the 3.42's most of them come with. It's a Z71 and has the towing package so it was optioned with 3.73's from GM.

Very interesting to hear that on the NNBS intake as well, makes me second guess swapping to one now.

CattleAc

iTrader: (7)

I own 3 5.3 powered 1500's, all with the GT4 option...I'm pretty happy with that combo...

Martin, I apologize for not calling yet...been extremely busy, as I'm sure you are too...I'll get in touch with you on Mon.

Tuskyz28

GEARS seem like it's the key factor for towing with a gas burner. I have talked to a guy that tow cars with a 4.3 V6 S10 truck. 4.30 gears are in the rear and he pulls that trans am everywhere.

Martin do you plan on adding a custom towing tune/headers ?

96capricemgr

iTrader: (1)

Martin '05 Sierra Crew Z71 with 3.42s is my daily. Bit anemic even compared to a stock LT1 wagon with 2.93s. Betting the 3.73s help a lot.
Haven't towed a lot with it, hauled couple car trailers but never actually a car on them. Fresh Bilsteins on the truck for $275 a set from TireRack with the shipping and once up to speed I couldn't feel the trailers at all. Hauled some lighter trailers before the fresh Bilsteins and even smaller stuff I felt more.

If Hauling often I would call your favorite tranny vendor for a Transgo Kit. I like ProBuilt Automatics. Dana actually opens the kit and makes notes about what options to set it up with once you are in the pan.

96capricemgr

iTrader: (1)

What would a custom towing tune consist of?

IMO engine parameters should be set to what the engine wants with MAP accounting for varying load.
Set the "performance" tables up for tow/haul mode with maybe some tweaks from factory but this would just be normal upgraded programming, nothing really geared specifically to towing.

Like folks that want separate tunes fro street or track, unless running special fuel at the track it seems pointless to not run the engine and tranny the same way on the track.

The idea of needing to screw with tuning for how you use a vehicle that day is carb thinking, the pcm gives us an amazing number of parameters to keep the engine and tranny performance dialed in just right no matter the varying conditions, be they load, temp, to some degree fuel etc.

Tuskyz28

Great question... too bad I can't answer that cause I'm not a tuner. However I know Duttweiler Engineering and Black bear performance have a tune they called the "tow tune"....

I have talk to Kenny Duttweiler about it over the phone...
He had mention the 6.0 LQ9 hot rod mag built just was that. The tune added 30 hp/20 ftlb.
On the sync the 6.0 pumped out 408 horses and 440 ft lb with just GTO headers and a tune.

96capricemgr

iTrader: (1)

But that should just be part of getting a custom tune for your application.

Mercier

iTrader: (15)

I am only skinning my knees at this point in learning tuning so this is top of my head thinking (scary stuff right?)

Track vs. street I kinda understand. If you aren't running different fuel or anything else that will significantly change the game, a proper, well thought out tune should work for both. But at least some folks may want a tune that is more efficient or less stressful on the drive train on the street for DD duties. Maybe that falls into the same bucket too but just pointing out it's not always just about what's fastest for everybody. I personally think it should be.

Now with towing, it occurs to me that the difference is that all of a sudden you might DOUBLE the vehicle weight or even more. The PCM can't put your vehicle+load on a scale every time it starts up.. It seems like the sensors the PCM uses rather infer that change by situations like "well, we went WOT 30 years ago and vacuum/MAP is still in the gutter" or similar. But I still think you're expecting a lot of the normally fairly smart PCM as these aren't situations it is usually expecting; hence, tow-haul mode I suppose but also likely an opportunity for tune optimization toward high-load situations. I guess I feel like things will be better overall if the PCM is already ordered to be in the neighborhood tune-wise and has to make less drastic adjustments. Or maybe I am underestimating its potential.

That's how it occurs to me. I may be wrong and either way would like to hear opinions on the subject. I jumped straight to diesel for my truck so I haven't had the opportunity to dabble in this area.

PS I think why we are here in the convo is that nobody ever seems to measure gains between idle-2500RPM, arguably the only place that matters much when towing. So "added xx HP" is problematic unless qualified by RPM. What about his "tow tune" made it a "tow tune?"

Thanks

Sales@Tick

iTrader: (3)

No problem sir, anytime you're ready is fine with me.
Gears are a huge factor with any kind of towing IMO. Lower gears offer added mechanical advantage that doesn't have to be produced by added engine output. This helps get a heavier load up to speed and hold it there more easily with added throttle input. Much like your example of the 4.3 S-10 with 4.30 gears.

It seems even when it comes to diesel powered 2500-3500 series trucks that tow heavier loads that added mechanical advantage in the form of lower gears are necessary. Diesels are great at towing because of their torque output at low engine speeds. Thus they produce massive cylinder pressure at those low engines speeds. Which in turn produces its own mechanical advantage that leverages the crankshaft in the form of torque.

I've seen some 2500HD and 3500 series trucks with Duramax diesels equipped with 4.10's. Granted these have 5 and 6 speed transmissions which still allows a relatively low RPM at cruising speeds.

One of the first things I'm going to do is level the truck with torsion keys and de-badge it and tint the windows. Then it will get a tune. We tune trucks and SUV's to hold the lower gears longer, lock the torque converter at a slightly higher MPH, kick down into lower gears sooner, don't up-shift into higher gears sooner and un-lock the torque converter sooner. We've found that by doing these small things that added MPG is easily achievable and it makes the truck feel like it has a bit more power. Basically what we're doing is harnessing the mechanical advantage that the lower gear ratios afford. The benefit is not having to lug the truck in higher gears and/or against the torque converter clutch so not as much throttle input is needed to achieve and retain cruising speeds.

We will also play with timing and fueling along with torque management as well. These things can help a truck feel a lot faster even though it's really not making much if any more power.

After that I will probably add a set of long tube headers, off-road y-pipe with a 4" to 3" FM merge and a 3" cat-back of some sort that we can easily fabricate here in the shop. Then it will be getting re-tuned again.

After that I plan on 243/799 heads milled .030" and to test a towing cam grind I want to try. Somewhere in between all of this I'd also like to add a larger capacity trans cooler and do as Capricemgr said and have the trans re-built with a Transgo shift kit and a Vette servo. Along with new performance clutches/steels, just your basic overhaul kit. I might beef it up some, but I'll have to read up on beefing up 60e transmissions. I'm used to Powerglides and TH400's admittedly. Never had anything with a 60e before!

The previous owner put a brake control module in it and it has some type of coil over spring on the shocks which he said he did to help with hauling capacity and trailer weight. It's got some D range tires on it right now which I'm thinking I might replace with some E range tires once they wear out. Might be overkill though, we'll see.