TX98Z28

Well time to finally mess with the stock LS1 or maybe not? I was planning on doing heads, cam, ls6 or fast intake with supporting mods, lid, oil pump, timing chain, etc etc.

I thought about this for a while, guys doing the top end and dropping a lot of money and doing nothing with the bottom end with over 100,000 miles and works well for them, then I hear "If I had to do it over again wish I went bigger etc".

My camaro has 163,000 do I really want to dump 4k+ into the top end and take the risk the stock bottom end survives say 450rwhp? It's the bearings I'm concerned with mainly. The motor runs great but damn I put it through hell back in high school!

I just don't feel fully comfortable only doing half at this point or pulling the whole motor and not adding some cubes.

Budget for engine is 6k-8k, realistically more like 8k-10k, lets be fair would love to do it for 6k-8k if possible finding some good used parts.

Looking to make say 500rwhp, 460-480rwtq N/A, something around there, will spray 150-250 shot eventually. Like to stay with 4" stroke to help with longevity of engine. Car will be my daily driver but could end up being a weekend warrior (I have a beater to drive if necessary)

Parts I already have/bought (can be sold if necessary)
- LS6 intake
- LS6 PCV
- 99+ valve covers & brackets
- ARP Pro head studs
- Every other ARP bolts, (except for internal engine mains, rods)
- All sensors, covers, everything thats stock on the motor that can be reused
- Headers, kooks duals
- more small stuff
Option 1
- Resleeve LS1, Darton's 3.980 Wet sleeve, & bore to spec for a 402, 408, etc. $2150 from performance place in CT. I need to call TSP and see if they do resleeving also.
- Buy forged everything else rotating assembly, heads, cam, oil pump. etc from TSP have them or me assemble it, Price TBD

Option 2
- Buy 408 LQ9 forged Long block from TSP, Price TBD, but feel could be in budget if sold or parted out LS1

It's a really hard decision their both close in price just, with every sold/parted out etc.

Things I looked at considered,
- The resleeved LS1 will be 100 lbs. less than the LQ9
- Can use a lot of the stuff I already bought
- LS3 topend or LS6 topend (used LS3 intake w/ rails, injectors are cheap)

All thoughts, opinions, things I'm missing, criticism without making me feel like an idiot are welcome, it's my first build.

Thanks guys

redtan

iTrader: (5)

IMO a sleeved aluminum block is the clear choice compared to an iron block given that they are the same price in the end.

However I am still trying to wrap my head around how sleeving a block could cost the same as an iron block (with the rotating assemblies and other stuff being constants).

gagliano7

You could also get a aluminum shortblock http://www.ebay.com/itm/5-7L-Stock-r...AAAOSw-jhUF23Q or http://www.ebay.com/itm/LS1-LS6-Alum...AAAMXQ8odRHA0B 5.7 from Thompson motorsports or there long block http://www.ebay.com/itm/TMS-440HP-5-...-/281302724183

TX98Z28

It will be close, but the iron block should be cheaper but heavier, I already moved 100 lbs. off the front don't want to put it back if don't have to. I can use a lot of stuff I already have sleeving my LS1 and sell what I don't need.

TSP's 408 LQ9 long block is tempting though and less of a headache but heavier is the problem, already adding 150 lbs. with the sound system really don't want to add more.

TX98Z28

I just saw this on there site http://www.ebay.com/itm/600hp-long-b...-/270998456709
really damn tempting, just another 100 lbs. is the only problem

gagliano7

http://www.ebay.com/itm/ls2-aluminum...YAAOSwkZhWTg7O

http://www.ebay.com/itm/LS2-New-alum...MAAOSwFGNWTghY

Here you go 100 lbs back off.

Jake89

Priorities man. Scrap the sound system and get the 408. You won't be able to hear the sound system with dumpers and a nasty cam anyways.

Just busting your chops....it is your car and money.

TX98Z28

I will with the one I'm putting in

Starting to look like resleeving the LS1 is going to be a big hassle and cost me to much time, Thompson and TSP's long blocks are looking way more practical and logical plus I can pick them up and save more as I'm in texas.

Money is basically what it all comes down to……Can't wait for the day some genius invents a replicator!

Not throwing the resleeving out the window yet but it's starting to look that way price and time wise.

DavidBoren

Would you be using the Darton MID sleeves? Their normal sleeves are just cast iron, and I wouldn't waste my money on sleeves that are cast. The Darton MID sleeves are ductile iron and would be the only sleeves I would use from Darton.

ERL uses ductile iron sleeves in their blocks. And I believe LA Sleeve uses ductile iron, as well, or at least offers ductile iron sleeves.

TX98Z28

Correct the Darton MID Wet sleeve part#600-100 were the ones I was looking at. Gives more bore options going with the 3.980 bore instead of the 4.110 bore Part#600-120.

Part of me wants to spend the extra time and money resleeving as its get the best of both worlds. 100 lbs. less block plus the added strength and cooling of the Darton MID's. Looks like I have to run that Evans coolant and possibly a bigger water pump (didn't know before), so looking like it's going to cost more resleeving but superior in every other department, especially for boost or N20.

Now I'm not saying a LQ9 can't take a bunch of abuse because it can. I knew a guy with one in his C5 spraying a 500 shot direct port. I just don't want that extra 100 pounds and looking like it's going to cost me but worth it, if I go that route.

DavidBoren

Those Darton MID sleeves also reinforce the deck surface. Combine that with any of ther aftermarket head castings with the thicker deck, and you will have a combination that will take a ton of abuse. A high flow electric water pump and waterless coolant are good things to use on a high performance engine anyways, so I definitely wouldn't consider those a deterrent. The cost is the only drawback, but then again, you have to pay to play.

kingtal0n

iTrader: (1)

If you want 500bhp~ on a budget, instead of trying to build something, I would pick up two or three cheap $800~ LSx longblocks from running vehicles with 100k~ miles and boost one, holding the others as spares.

This way, there is no machine work, no down time, you can throw the motor right in, there is no opening it up and fooling with parts or clearances, and the power is made through boost/methanol if you choose the right LSx platform. It also means when the block is done, there are no expensive parts inside it to remove or that get broken. This path you will have an $800 investment under the hood, and it could lasts 5+ years, you may very well wind up with several good LSx engines on the floor, increasing in value over time in your storage.

TX98Z28

There is no room for 3 engines to storage in the garage, although I did go looking and found some cheap there no where to store them. Found and ls1 long block for $1000 with 12,000 miles on it but it looked like it had 121,000 miles on it.

Ultimately as DavidBoren said gotta pay to play, damn motor is expensive to build right and strong, even more if went with a Gen IV block then have to upgrade PCM, harness, sensors etc. Main reason I'm looking at Gen III block options. I'll just steal the ls3's top end

DavidBoren

Out of all the ERL builds on here, I have never seen anyone say that a handful of junkyard motors would be a better investment. Build your badass sleeved LS1, man. It will be awesome and invincible and allows you all the room to grow.

kingtal0n

iTrader: (1)

For daily drivers, I like to build vehicles where the engine is less important than the output. This way the vehicle itself is carrying the value- not the engine- so it typically turns over for a profit. Once you start pushing thousands into an engine that usually turns into a money pit, one that becomes harder and harder to let go of.

Look at the vehicle with no engine at all, because that is how it winds up if you build something and then blow it up, a non-running shell with thousands invested into a blown engine. You can always build something later and sell the stock motor back out of it. You also get a preview of the performance, a chance to work out plumbing and bugs, and build a track record of noises and handling capability before the real engine comes into play, not to mention establishing a healthy record for the existing longblock, which you could then be assured that as its on it's way to the machine shop- it was a good motor when you pulled it out of your own car for the build, as opposed to finding out halfway through a build the block is somehow trashed because you trusted a seller that it was good without trying it first.

For example, lets say you wanted to build something and make 700bhp. Not too difficult these days.
Lets add up some generic costs:
vehicle $5000
motor $5000
Drivetrain $5000
Turbo install $5000

This generic plan is a $20,000 investment. The first time you run the engine, it will be new, so you will find some "custom problems" while you drive, for example you went 3000miles and the clutch starts acting funny, or there is some kind of vibration, or the engine is hard to start, or oil is dripping off the back of the pan, or the transmission isn't shifting correctly, or the engine is smoking on one side, or the header is rubbing the vehicle down below, etc... These problems are typical with fresh installs and some of them may require removing the engine to fix, or clean and repair the mess. There is a high chance that a custom engine installation for high performance use will need to be removed from the vehicle more than once for this sort of tweaking behavior, rarely do all custom parts simply fit and work and not leak together the first time out.

Take one step back and instead of installing a $5000 engine first, lets use a $1000 stock engine. Remember there is a high chance it will need to come out anyways; Now, we get to do the same exact thing, for 20%~ of the cost of a fully built engine, except that now you are abusing/hard starting/vibrating/rubbing/burning/smoking the OEM engine as a test dummy. It doesn't have to die either; keep the output reasonable from those turbochargers until the real engine gets installed, help it live through the testing and re-sell it or use it in the build ftw. Problems are found more quickly: " it didn't smoke under WOT with the stock engine" and "the OEM motor never made that noise/had that problem", "the other engine shifted just fine with the same trans", "The OEM engine started easy, and nothing changed in the ecu/wiring but the new motor is difficult" are paramount to diagnostics, as issues you may have simply "lived with" before are now easier to recognize as problems. Do not see my recommendation as an absolute stone path, but rather as an alternative way to see the chassis in its progression to a finely tuned reliable daly driver.

BlackedOut LS1

iTrader: (4)

So I recently spent somewhere around $6-7K rebuilding and upgrading my H/C/I on my LS1 making 430RWHP. If I were to do it again i'd go with Thompson Motorsports Iron 408 instead, either I would have spent the same or a little less but I'd be making way more HP. You're gonna save time and money in machining costs also.

TX98Z28

Did you pull the whole motor and put new bearing etc. in or just do the top end only for 6-7K?

I'm highly considering a forged LQ9 408. Either Thompson or TSP at this point.

I want to resleeve the LS1 but after doing a bunch of pricing and taking what redtan said at the beginning of the thread into account about resleeving the LS1 it's going to cost more no way getting around it. Both have their pros and cons but the LQ9 is going to be cheaper at this point. I'll just spray the **** out of it for more bang. The extra 100 lbs. won't matter with a 150+shot and the cost of the machining/sleeving the LS1 will pay for the N2O kit, rockers, springs etc.

Flat out the LQ9 is looking way more feasible at this point.

TX98Z28

A good read, I appreciate your response and opinion.

I should have mentioned though the whole suspension and drivetrain on my camaro is being replaced/new/aftermarket etc. The only thing that won't be rated to 700wrhp or more is the T56 but it's already rebuilt with only about 25-30K miles on it. When it goes it goes… built TR6060 will replace it.
This is my high school muscle car and the only way it's going anywhere is if I completely roll/total it. The money I put into it is priceless, Yes it's a money pit but a pit worth slowly being filled IMO. When I'm 45-60 I will fully/completely restore it again and make it perfectly flawless. If I ever get married she's going before the car does.