kingtal0n

iTrader: (1)

Let me tell you secret. The people on this forum that use stock engines for boost applications... buy them up and hoard them. Those 5.3's are becoming rare, limited supply and all that and prices are starting to shoot up. The more of us they can convince to rebuild existing engines over and over, the lower the cost for the other guys who hope to find good longblocks for boost. So of course, they will be all up in here telling you to build this and build that, yeah do a cam swap put a head on it and try to suck on the atmosphere for all its worth. Just stay away from my junkyard supply of good engines that support 500~ for 50k miles for $1000 (used to be $500 and soon it will be 2k).

You can make a good factory engine last almost as long as you want (be reasonable, 200k), if you know what you are doing. Just because you strap a turbo to something doesn't mean you need to run boost pressure. Knowledge of wastegates and plumbing, tuning and combustion theory is part of what keeps engines alive. The other part is experience, knowing what to look for and what to maintain/replace/repair/beef up before taking the car to the road. I would never suggest somebody install a turbo unless they are confident to tune it themselves. But the same goes for anybody looking to install a built engine. If you are not strong in engine tuning... learn it while you put the $$ into the trans/rear. Or else, swear off vehicles all together and give up, or become rich and buy a bunch of high power cars only to realize that its not fun to just buy what you want, it wasn't the destination after all, then you crash emotionally the world turns grey, you get depressed and off yourself.

SumDumKid

iTrader: (10)

First off, $650 times 2 (a pair) is $1300...


Secondly, did the headers just magically appear? Or the entire cold side plumbing? That all costs money too. Blow off valve(s), waste gates, boost controller, intercooler, piping, oil feed lines, etc. A tune from a good forced induction tuner will be needed as well, and last time I checked, it isn't free.


You can't simply look at the cost of the turbo or turbos and think that's it. There is much more to boosting an engine that people don't consider. There is a forum on here that discussed a basic turbo build, and it was estimated that good homemade turbo setup and a tune was in the neighborhood of $3500 to $4000. Emphasis on GOOD.


Also, once you blow one motor, you'll probably wanna beef up the next one, so you'll put money into a motor one way or another.


One way to save a few bucks is to get a China turbo set up from CX Racing or whoever else, but that stuff isn't quality. I guess you won't have a problem though if you're only boosting 6 psi.


OP or anyone reading this with the same dilemma: What I'm trying to say is you do you. If you eventually wanna have a turbo car, turbo your high mileage motor now, get the kinks sorted out, and then when the motor goes, put a new one in. If you don't wanna do FI, throw a cam in it. Like someone said earlier, you gotta break eggs to make an omelette. Just build the car YOU want to build.

kingtal0n

iTrader: (1)

once you buy it, you own it. Make it right and use it forever. Think of it as a holy quest to find the grail manifold, something you encounter and keep for eternity once it becomes acceptable to use in whatever state your mind is in.




I can look at it however I want, and here it is: The power is the turbo, You say 800rwhp and I say 88lb/min. The engine is just the lion tamer. If it can handle the turbo lion and not get mauled to death year after year, the car is reliable after some number of years Y with any engine, and WE decide what Y is. For example I feel that 5 years 50k is pretty reasonable, but you set it wherever you want for your own purposes. So the cost per power is equal to the cost of the turbo only, the engine is never a factor for the parts you intend to keep forever. The oil and manifold and water supply is all part of the engines health. A healthy engine will keep a healthy turbo which should outlast the engine. You monitor oil cleanliness, air filtration, manifold exhaust gas temperature and if possible, pressure. Give the turbo the clean oil feed and avoid slamming it around (surge behavior), buy from a high quality manufacturer and if possible try several different configurations to find the best fit.

must find a stock engine which has seen 120k and has no modifications, was used in a heavy/truck low rpm threshold with modern valvetrain components and severe engineering where reliable sealing and pressure is achieved, with clean looking oil and a clean smelling/looking set of original rocker arms pushing synthetic and good compression is for us to drive from 120k to 220k. 100k of mileage. Now the trick is, whats the biggest lion the engine can tame for 100k miles? With an 80% confidence that you will get 100k miles at 480rwhp for whatever the cost of that longblock can be defined in terms of Cost/Power/Mileage for example:
480rwhp with a $1000 lion tamer for 100k 80% of the time
520rwhp "" 78% of the time
580rwhp "" 57% of the time
and so forth for each lion tamer in a practical application.

Now adjust the cost of the longblock up as prices increase for them. pretty soon, it will be cheaper to rebuild what you have than to buy a next longblock. That day is coming as the supply is, ... limited


Even when using harsh estimates for confidence of stock engines at 400-500rwhp ranges is favorable to built engines running N/A configurations, because built engines are at a much, much lower confidence for going 100k than stock engines, in general, even if just for the sake of random coincidence or completely unexpected behavior of metals and open air.

finding a good engine:
A stock engine that has never been opened has mostly been kept clean by it's air filter if it had a good paper element replaced at reasonable interval (we always assume the engine already passed the oil cleanliness test already to get to this point, otherwise you would never move on the next steps outlined here). Only take engines which have been run with an OEM paper element. Check the original throttle body for signs of filth passing into the engine due to poor sealing or maintenance. Use a high quality (OEM style paper if possible) filter for the engine when you are not officially racing it for money or fame. You could make a large housing to fit several diesel or high performance car filters if you wanted to, don't say that isn't possible to get performance out of one or many. The goal is to protect the engine so that mileage is more of a function of natural wear and tear than environmental hazards. How many different substances are inside a single pollen grain, how many metals are involved in the metabolism of a plant's genetic package and deployment. No where on the natural earth is the air actually clean. the natural parts per million of what is in the air and how much of it you breath each day does affect your life and immune system responses. This entire paragraph is emphasis on the air filtration of the engine, it can be thought of it as the oil clean keeper, it helps keep the oil clean. IF the insides of the engine can stay correctly spaced and filled correctly with oil as intended and nothing moves out of place at the various harmonies and pressures associated with running in the application it was intended for (boats vs cars different issues) then technically, nothing has or can fail. In other words, if everything stays put, stays clean and properly filled with oil there is technically going to be a negligible amount of friction and wear no matter whether it turns once, twice, or 5000 times per minute. Any unexpeced amount of friction were there even just a single revolution could cause significant damage, do you think a set of bearings and a crankshaft could be installed with no oil or assembly lube, that it would even turn one single revolution without disastrous consequences? if a single space between a bearing and journal were robbed of oil any significant length, it is impending disaster immediately that day, you won't get 200k or even another .001k without the oil going where it should consistently. Therefore, a running engine with good oiling/parts character is said to be immortal with respect to the function of turning over and over, that is, we do not consider the engine's lifetime as a function of revolutions for street vehicles, we use miles/year instead, attributing the gradual decay to filtration, contamination, and cold starts where the engine goes oil pressure-less for a brief moment.

1970camaroRS

iTrader: (8)

Don't listen to this gibberish. A high-mile cam swap is just fine.

MuhThugga

What kind of omelets are you eating?

MuhThugga

And I agree, go ahead and swap a cam into it. I would be sure to change the timing chain, oil pump, lifters, trays, and valve seals at that mileage, as well. But there is no reason to think your motor is going to grenade after a cam swap at that mileage. If you don't want to pull the heads to change out the lifters, then I would suggest a camshaft with milder ramp rates on the lobe profile so that a valve spring without tons of seat pressure can be used.

kingtal0n

iTrader: (1)

1. add the cost of those parts and labor and compare to a complete longblock from the junkyard

2. If the work is done by a real professional, then fine. The concern of mine has nothing to do with mileage; cam swaps at 0miles are just as dangerous as cam swaps at 200k if the work is being performed by a novice.

If you can get a professional to do the work, somebody with actually hundreds of engines under their belt, and math/science background, it might live. If you are doing your first cam swap ever... I dont care what the mileage is, it probably isn't going to get very far. It is statistically relevant whether or not the cam swapp'e is knowledgeable about the engine they are performing the work on, as well as the environmental hazards associated with opening any engine in general to the air and moving parts around inside it.

Darth_V8r

iTrader: (4)

OP, my motor got its first cam swap at 140k and the factory cross hatch was still there. Like muthugga said, change the lifters, springs, chain, etc.

MuhThugga

What the **** are you going on about? What the hell does the sum of the cam swap parts have to do with buying a junkyard engine?

And why the **** is a chaos theory mathematician with a set of wrenches the only person qualified to perform a cam swap?

MuhThugga

kingtal0n

iTrader: (1)

If you own a single engine that needs rings, then dump $1000 into it changing the valvetrain around, you still have a single worn out engine that needs rings, soon to be zero. When it blows, you could lose a lot of the valvetrain parts, leaving you with zero engines and a total loss. I won't use parts from a blown engine that had metal run through it; YOU can if you want. This is an unnecessary risk path.


OTOH, If you own a single engine that needs rings, then dump $1000 into a spare longblock, you now have two engines to play with. If the original engine blows, instead of losing possibly $1000 in valvetrain parts and being left with 0 engines, you will still have a second engine which you needed anyways because of the rings in the first one. This is a conservative, preparatory path.


So the question becomes: Do I want to possibly shorten the lifespan of my existing tired engine or do I want to own two engines? Is that really so hard to decide?


These two paths show that when working within a budget as a novice, it is often cheaper and more reliable to pick up a second engine until you develop the necessary skills and experience to do such things as cam swaps. I don't doubt my work; I've done 3 cam swaps to my car at 165k 180k and so forth without issue. But I am as careful... as a mathematician! Or doctor? One of those.

ddnspider

iTrader: (26)

All those hating on a turbo for a high mileage motor are funny. You already have worn piston rings which will help keep them from butting up and popping a ringland. And since we're on the topic of reliability and people are claiming a cam swap is only a couple hundred bucks....you have at least 150 in good springs, 350 in a cam, another 100 in retainers and locks, another 100 in pushrods, you need full exhaust and longtubes as well as at least an ls6 intake and lid to let the cam breathe, tack on another 600 for all that.....and now you've spent over 1000 on your cam that's a "couple hundred". Oh and youreally not going to keep the stock Rev limiter anymore right? So you high mileage motor is now being revved to 6500-7000rpms, really good for a worn out motor. Meanwhile, a DIYer could build a 500hp stock motor ls1 with a turbo for 1500 and keep the stock Rev liter and beat on it all day without a problem. And if you haven't done it before, your opinion doesn't really matter. I've seen/done both.....if the car is bone stock and high mileage is turbo it if you can fab yourself, if not than throw a n2O kit on it.

LLLosingit

iTrader: (4)

Nobody is hating on turbo builds for high mileage engines, If that's what you got from reading the posts on this thread then you better go back and read them again.
What I and others have pointed out is the fact that the op asked about doing a simple cam swap on a high mileage engine and you have a know it all douche come along and suggests doing a turbo kit instead of wasting time on a cam kit. There is a huge difference in cost and complexity of a simple cam swap versus a turbo build.

PS, You don't have to do anything other than cam and spring and maybe pushrods, All the other stuff you listed is optional and although it will compliment the cam it isn't mandatory to do to see gains.

pozesd99'

iTrader: (3)

The way i see it, doing a heads/ cam swap on a higher mileage motor will make it last longer. Alot of major essensial parts will be replaced with stronger parts. Parts can be cleaned, inspected etc. lifters will be replaced, timing chain, oil pump, camshaft, valave seal, springs etc. to the op, just do it! Doesnt matter if its your first time. Take it slowly and do it correctly. If you have any questions or concerns, mention them here. There are thousands of members willing to help

1970camaroRS

iTrader: (8)

Biggest win in this thread!

ddnspider

iTrader: (26)

Everybody immediately jumped him when he brought up turbos, and while normally I prefer to disagree with him, in this instance it does make more sense.
PS...who only puts a cam in a motor without doing intake and exhaust? That's pretty pointless when there are known power gains from intake and exhaust WITHOUT doing a cam swap.

Chevy Guy

iTrader: (2)

LLLosingit

iTrader: (4)

Lots of people do, You can put in a mild cam ($300-$400 and keep stock style springs (LS3 new take offs for $50) that and a tune will gain you 40-50hp and feel like more with a tune. As far as the intake is concerned depending on the cam you may not gain much unless you're running an LS1 intake, If you already have an LS6 intake or truck intake you won't gain much in the low to mid range where street cars see most of their time. Same goes for exhaust, It will help in the upper rpms but not much down low.
Now if you are going to cam that puts the power band further up in the RPMs then yes you'll likely need dual springs, Better intake and headers and don't forget the higher stall and maybe even more gear. It all depends on what the OP is trying to accomplish. You can do it really cheap if you watch the classifieds section for the cam.
If there is one thing I have learned is that any upgrade can turn very expensive if you fail to factor in all the supporting mods needed when choosing parts. Even something like adding a turbo ends up costing you more than just the price of the kit in the end because with all that new power you realize you need to upgrade other parts like the converter/trans/rearend/injectors/fuel system and so on.
I'm ******* deep in what started out to be a simple 6.0 4l80e S10 over the (last) winter swap that has now ballooned into a 6.0 with LSA supercharger and 6 speed down to the bare frame (narrowed) all out build. Probably have over 12k into it now and it's just now getting into the reassembly stage and now shooting for next spring to have it back on the road.

ls1charged

iTrader: (8)

while i didnt have as many miles on my motor as the Op, i had (~110k stock bottom) I bought a used turbo kit on here from a member, used 60# injectors, used fuel pump, got aftermarket springs and hardened push rods from a vendor for $100... installed everything listed with a buddy in a couple days, and had an easy 550hp, better driveablity then your gonna have with a cam thats not gonna get you anywhere close to that power level... and i didn't have to rev to the moon, went over 6k once because i was racing a gt500 at the track lol but it made plenty of power under 6k... rpms kill engines, its unnecessary with turbos to rev so high and achieve more power then a cam is gonna give you..... well worth it IMO for less then $2k

slogo

This will teach the OP for asking opinions about a simple cam swap in a high milage engine.