CNC Machine work vs Old Style
Thread Starter
Staging Lane
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 71
Likes: 2
From: Roy, Utah
CNC Machine work vs Old Style I want to build a 408 stroker with a whipple blower. I am looking to run the Wiseco K1 rotating assembly. The CNC machinist wants 1200 dollars more. Both shops seem to have good reviews. The CNC shop just charges more. They also wanted to run King bearings vs the supplied Clevite brand.
I need opinions would you pay the extra 1200? I can't see the CNC block machining being any more advantage over the old school way. Head port and polish is a different story. Lets hear why you think its better if you think the 1200 is worth it.
I need opinions would you pay the extra 1200? I can't see the CNC block machining being any more advantage over the old school way. Head port and polish is a different story. Lets hear why you think its better if you think the 1200 is worth it.
Thread Starter
Staging Lane
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 71
Likes: 2
From: Roy, Utah
I am having a LQ4 bored and honed with deck plate, align hone mains after ARP install blue print decks to crank center and resurface deck, install cam bearins, check all oil clearances, balance and assembly short block. According to Wiseco the block bores will need a chamfer at the bottom to clear the stroker crank. The CNC machine shop said they would do the chamfer with a program, not a bur bit and high speed. I am new to this. First motor ever having built. Part to part. The CNC shop wants 1200 more.
I am not sure how many blocks the CNC shop does, but if they have to write a program, buy some tooling, and build a fixture for that set-up, that would probably be about $1200.
Assuming it is set-up correctly and programmed correctly, you really can't bat the CNC. It probably depends more on how accurate you want things to be and how picky you are. All the blocks are machined with CNC equipment when new, so they are pretty tight to begin with.
Assuming it is set-up correctly and programmed correctly, you really can't bat the CNC. It probably depends more on how accurate you want things to be and how picky you are. All the blocks are machined with CNC equipment when new, so they are pretty tight to begin with.
A CNC can't do the job any better then manual machines. at the end of the day it still comes down to the operator. find the darkest mustiest old machine shop with 1940s machines and an antisocial hermit owner, your stuff will probably come out perfect. machine work is a lost art these days
Thread Starter
Staging Lane
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 71
Likes: 2
From: Roy, Utah
I am not sure how many blocks the CNC shop does, but if they have to write a program, buy some tooling, and build a fixture for that set-up, that would probably be about $1200.
Assuming it is set-up correctly and programmed correctly, you really can't bat the CNC. It probably depends more on how accurate you want things to be and how picky you are. All the blocks are machined with CNC equipment when new, so they are pretty tight to begin with.
Assuming it is set-up correctly and programmed correctly, you really can't bat the CNC. It probably depends more on how accurate you want things to be and how picky you are. All the blocks are machined with CNC equipment when new, so they are pretty tight to begin with.
I am picky and I like my stuff to last and be correct. I just dont have the extra 1200 for machine work right now. I could use that 1200 for the cam, springs, trunnion upgrade, etc. I dont hear alot of people ranting and raving about CNC block work. So Inwanted to see if it really was truely superior. I have have never rebuilt an engine so this is all new to me. The CNC shop would cost the same if I assembled the compontent. But I am not sure if that means they will file the rings for me and check oil clearance on the bearings. I know Wiseco sends bearings with their kits what if they are to loose or to tight. If the old school shop assembles they check clearance and I would assume machine if they are too tight.
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On The Tree
Joined: Jan 2012
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For everything you've listed, including assembly, $1200 is a deal. Prepping a block (new or used) for aftermarket parts takes a laundry list of machine work, all of which can be pricey. I spent $1100 towards machine work (without assembly) on a new LS3 block just to get it ready for my build. As DietCoke mentioned, with the right operator, there isn't a difference between CNC and manual machines. Shop around but make sure any machine shop understands the LS platform and the dimensions associated with it. That is more important, along with the operator, than the equipment used.
EDIT: I misinterpreted your post. The shop with the CNC equipment wants $1200 more than the other guy with manual machines. Go with whichever shop has more experience with LS motors. Sometimes the small guys are better at their craft, albeit at the expense of platform knowledge (LS vs, SBC, vs Ford, etc).
EDIT: I misinterpreted your post. The shop with the CNC equipment wants $1200 more than the other guy with manual machines. Go with whichever shop has more experience with LS motors. Sometimes the small guys are better at their craft, albeit at the expense of platform knowledge (LS vs, SBC, vs Ford, etc).
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Verdad Gallardo A CNC can't do the job any better then manual machines. at the end of the day it still comes down to the operator. find the darkest mustiest old machine shop with 1940s machines and an antisocial hermit owner, your stuff will probably come out perfect. machine work is a lost art these days
You can have the best manual machinist in the world and he could not hold the tolerance of a cheaper newer CNC. Not even close.
If you do not have the money, then it is kind of a dead issue. If you are not racing the engine and trying to squeeze every last drop out of it, personally, I wouldn't worry about it. I would still find a good reputable shop with a new hone and some newer equipment. As with anything mechanical, worn bearings, backplay, etc on a machine has a lot to do with how the part comes off the machine.
Absolutely incorrect. No possible way to hold the tolerances on location with a manual. I do not care how good you are. You can bore a hole within a tolerance, but is it perfectly round, straight, and has the finish you need? I doubt it.
You can have the best manual machinist in the world and he could not hold the tolerance of a cheaper newer CNC. Not even close.
If you do not have the money, then it is kind of a dead issue. If you are not racing the engine and trying to squeeze every last drop out of it, personally, I wouldn't worry about it. I would still find a good reputable shop with a new hone and some newer equipment. As with anything mechanical, worn bearings, backplay, etc on a machine has a lot to do with how the part comes off the machine.
You can have the best manual machinist in the world and he could not hold the tolerance of a cheaper newer CNC. Not even close.
If you do not have the money, then it is kind of a dead issue. If you are not racing the engine and trying to squeeze every last drop out of it, personally, I wouldn't worry about it. I would still find a good reputable shop with a new hone and some newer equipment. As with anything mechanical, worn bearings, backplay, etc on a machine has a lot to do with how the part comes off the machine.
I dont want to be arguing about machine work manual vs cnc, but definitely run the king bearings. Theyre the best bearing on the market as of now. They are the only company that sizes them using airflow techniques usually only seen in nascar and bearing per bearing in each box they always have the best clearances when bore guaged. Clevite has gone slightly downhill, they do make decent bearings that will work, but King is a far superior brand when youre talking in the 10ths of thousands.
Thread Starter
Staging Lane
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 71
Likes: 2
From: Roy, Utah
I dont want to be arguing about machine work manual vs cnc, but definitely run the king bearings. Theyre the best bearing on the market as of now. They are the only company that sizes them using airflow techniques usually only seen in nascar and bearing per bearing in each box they always have the best clearances when bore guaged. Clevite has gone slightly downhill, they do make decent bearings that will work, but King is a far superior brand when youre talking in the 10ths of thousands.
Thread Starter
Staging Lane
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 71
Likes: 2
From: Roy, Utah
What I didnt like about the CNC shop was. At first the guy on the phone told me they would be close to the bump and grind machine shops. I said ok I was quoted 1200ish to bore,hone,deck, align hone and assemble short block. To Wiseco specs. He said ok well bring your block in and we can get it cleaned up and measure. Well I took the block in paid 200 to shot pean, hot tank, measure and check block. After a week I get a call saying what do you wanna do now? I said a 408 on boost. He said it says here you wanna have us assemble. I said yes. He said well we need to quote your parts. I told them I had got a really good quote from Wiseco and I read alot about their kit and wanted to run that. He said send me their quote. So I did. Mind you it was 2100 plus 50 to ship. He later sent me a quote for 1250 for labor, 150 in shop supplies, and 3300 for the parts. I said wow why so much. He said that is how they cover their 6 month warranty. He said you don't take fish to a restaurant have a chef cook it, get sick then do you blame the chef for not cooking right or you for providing bad fish. I said but its the same kit. Same part numbers. He said if I wanted to assemble the block myself it would be just the labor. Which is 300 more then the old school shop.
So the old school shop said 1200ish to do the machine work and assembly. The old school shop said no warranty on a performance build. I have no experience with building a short block. I am scared I might mess something up putting it together.
So the old school shop said 1200ish to do the machine work and assembly. The old school shop said no warranty on a performance build. I have no experience with building a short block. I am scared I might mess something up putting it together.
Absolutely incorrect. No possible way to hold the tolerances on location with a manual. I do not care how good you are. You can bore a hole within a tolerance, but is it perfectly round, straight, and has the finish you need? I doubt it.
You can have the best manual machinist in the world and he could not hold the tolerance of a cheaper newer CNC. Not even close.
You can have the best manual machinist in the world and he could not hold the tolerance of a cheaper newer CNC. Not even close.
What planet do you get your machine work done on that you think a CNC can hold a tolerance any better or worse then a manual machine part to part. Some of the aerospace parts I've seen done HAVE to be done on a manual machine because the CNC won't hold consistent to the 10 thousandth part to part.
TECH Resident
Joined: Apr 2014
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[QUOTE=joyridin';19413377]Absolutely incorrect. No possible way to hold the tolerances on location with a manual. I do not care how good you are. You can bore a hole within a tolerance, but is it perfectly round, straight, and has the finish you need? I doubt it.
You can have the best manual machinist in the world and he could not hold the tolerance of a cheaper newer CNC. Not even close.
Possibly another "Expert without Experience"
You can have the best manual machinist in the world and he could not hold the tolerance of a cheaper newer CNC. Not even close.
Possibly another "Expert without Experience"
Teching In
Joined: Sep 2016
Posts: 15
Likes: 0
It completely depends on machine maintenance and operator. A tight, new, CNC machine that has a perfectly written program operated by a meticulous experienced operator will be the best machine work overall you can get.
A cnc machine is only as good as its operator and the guy writing the program (or setting up the CAM). A CNC machine CAN cause more distortion in parts with a bad program that heats the parts up even with coolant. A part can be screwed up in a hurry by the operator if he does not set the X,Y,Z zeros of the part accurately or correctly as well. As long as the machine doesn't crash it won't know any better and do the entire part setup wrong. Oftentimes the machine is a crutch for operators who think the part will be perfect simply because it was done in a CNC machine. An experienced shop can obviously catch errors before it reaches the customer but again not all shops give a crap and use the term CNC as a crutch to cover up crap work because so many people think it must be right if it was done on a CNC. All of that said, it doesn't matter how good the operator is or how good the program is if the ways and ballscrews are garbage.
On the contrary a manual machine that is tight with a good DRO can be just as accurate. It leaves many more chances for human error, though. A worn machine can still be accurately used by an experienced operator. Still comes down to who is operating it and how much they care that day.
We do turbo work on manual and CNC machines and the biggest difference between the two for us is surface finish on certain materials and productivity.
A cnc machine is only as good as its operator and the guy writing the program (or setting up the CAM). A CNC machine CAN cause more distortion in parts with a bad program that heats the parts up even with coolant. A part can be screwed up in a hurry by the operator if he does not set the X,Y,Z zeros of the part accurately or correctly as well. As long as the machine doesn't crash it won't know any better and do the entire part setup wrong. Oftentimes the machine is a crutch for operators who think the part will be perfect simply because it was done in a CNC machine. An experienced shop can obviously catch errors before it reaches the customer but again not all shops give a crap and use the term CNC as a crutch to cover up crap work because so many people think it must be right if it was done on a CNC. All of that said, it doesn't matter how good the operator is or how good the program is if the ways and ballscrews are garbage.
On the contrary a manual machine that is tight with a good DRO can be just as accurate. It leaves many more chances for human error, though. A worn machine can still be accurately used by an experienced operator. Still comes down to who is operating it and how much they care that day.
We do turbo work on manual and CNC machines and the biggest difference between the two for us is surface finish on certain materials and productivity.
What I didnt like about the CNC shop was. At first the guy on the phone told me they would be close to the bump and grind machine shops. I said ok I was quoted 1200ish to bore,hone,deck, align hone and assemble short block. To Wiseco specs. He said ok well bring your block in and we can get it cleaned up and measure. Well I took the block in paid 200 to shot pean, hot tank, measure and check block. After a week I get a call saying what do you wanna do now? I said a 408 on boost. He said it says here you wanna have us assemble. I said yes. He said well we need to quote your parts. I told them I had got a really good quote from Wiseco and I read alot about their kit and wanted to run that. He said send me their quote. So I did. Mind you it was 2100 plus 50 to ship. He later sent me a quote for 1250 for labor, 150 in shop supplies, and 3300 for the parts. I said wow why so much. He said that is how they cover their 6 month warranty. He said you don't take fish to a restaurant have a chef cook it, get sick then do you blame the chef for not cooking right or you for providing bad fish. I said but its the same kit. Same part numbers. He said if I wanted to assemble the block myself it would be just the labor. Which is 300 more then the old school shop.
So the old school shop said 1200ish to do the machine work and assembly. The old school shop said no warranty on a performance build. I have no experience with building a short block. I am scared I might mess something up putting it together.
So the old school shop said 1200ish to do the machine work and assembly. The old school shop said no warranty on a performance build. I have no experience with building a short block. I am scared I might mess something up putting it together.
If they are the only CNC around I'd have them do the CNC work, then take your block and find a builder that will use the parts you give them, not the same parts marked up by more than half their cost.
The ones I saw on the comparisons generally said that acl was kind of all over the place. Clevite were pretty good, but they had to mix match the tops and bottoms from different ones out of the set to get each rod and main bearing clearances to be about the same across the board. I can't speak for all of the King bearings, but the King XP series says on their site that every one of their bearings will be within .0001 of each other. The comparison one of the guys did said that every one of the king xp bearings were perfect as far as not having to mix match tops and bottoms from one to another to get all the clearances the same. To me, that pretty much made up my mind on what I was buying.
But then again, who's to say that they didn't get a bad set of Clevite bearings? I know a lot of people use them without problems, but I've read more people having issues with those over the XP's. You'll get opinions from everyone on this subject, so I'd just do more research and go with what makes you the most comfortable.
Thread Starter
Staging Lane
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 71
Likes: 2
From: Roy, Utah
I'd be wary of both. $1200 for a 6 month warranty sounds more like they are looking to pay off the CNC machine. That they won't accept you dropping off new in box parts is absurd and he's just looking for the easy mark -up. The old school who won't warranty is basically wiping his hands clean of any issue that can be directly attributed to his installation error.